No.
Evidence of meeting #114 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #114 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.
A recording is available from Parliament.
6:25 p.m.
Conservative
Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Okay. I move that:
Given that,
A. The Liberal parliamentary secretary said “Boo hoo, get over it” when committee was questioning the Minister of Public Safety, Democratic Institutions and Intergovernmental Affairs, the Hon. Dominic Leblanc, about elected MPs who have knowingly helped hostile foreign countries and worked against Canada’s interests,
B. The committee call on MP Jennifer O’Connell to apologize to all Canadians of diaspora communities who are the targets of foreign interference and to all Canadians concerned about the integrity of our institutions and report this finding to the House.
I don't mean to belabour this. I'll summarize my point in about 30 seconds.
It's my position that as the parliamentary secretary, the member should be above reproach. This was a significant issue, and is a significant issue, Mr. Chair, when it comes to the public safety mandate, and we had the minister there. It was reported by the media.
I understand that sometimes heckling does happen. It happens in the House of Commons. Most of us have done things that we've had to apologize for. I think this is similarly appropriate, given that it happened at the committee table when the minister was here.
With that, I'm done, Mr. Chair.
Thank you.
6:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
Thank you.
We have had appropriate notice. The motion is in order.
I believe Ms. O'Connell wishes to speak, followed by Mr. Gaheer.
6:25 p.m.
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I appreciate the opportunity to speak on this motion. I find it quite disappointing after a meeting that dealt with very serious legislation. Mr. Caputo seemed to be silent on that as well, which is interesting, and instead decided, when it comes to foreign interference, that he would instead prefer to focus on political antics.
Mr. Chair, although the blues have not been released for that meeting, it's very clear, because there's video, that the Conservatives are misleading, frankly, this committee with this motion and the language around it, because the intervention with Mr. Genuis was very clearly only about heckling.
Mr. Genuis was upset that I had heckled Mr. Caputo, and in fact interrupted Mr. Gaheer's line of questioning. There was no mention of the NSICOP report. There was no mention in this interaction of the findings and the report. It was simply about the fact that Mr. Caputo was upset that I heckled him. It's an ironic point, given that in that very same meeting, Mr. Cooper was admonished by the chair for berating a witness.
While I would acknowledge and say that heckling is certainly not ideal, it does happen all of the time, and I would for sure apologize for heckling during Mr. Caputo's intervention. However, what happened and what took place subsequent to that meeting was that the Conservatives have now spun the interaction away from the actual issue, which was a debate over heckling, and spun it into something it's not, and now they're including the point about apologizing to diaspora communities and making the issue about the NSICOP report.
Again, anyone can watch the interaction and see that the Conservatives did not raise diaspora communities, did not raise foreign interference. They did not raise the NSICOP report. All they talked about was being upset that Mr. Caputo was interrupted by me.
It's this hypocrisy that I find so egregious, given the lack of respect that is provided to all members, and in particular by some of the Conservatives—in fact, the mover of this motion, who has heckled and interrupted not only Liberal members but Bloc and NDP members at different times.
We can have a debate about decorum, but what I won't accept is this mis-characterization of the events when it's very clear on the record that the Conservatives never even mentioned foreign interference in that intervention. To now purport it to be something that it's not, I find egregious.
I had to wonder why the Conservatives would try to spin something that is very clearly provable through Hansard and through video, frankly, because all of our meetings are recorded, and then I realized it's because the Conservatives would rather speak about me and make this a political exchange—
6:30 p.m.
Conservative
Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
I'm sorry to interrupt.
Mr. Chair, on a point of order, this has been a long week and a half. Staff and the witnesses have worked very hard. I was just wondering if we could let the witnesses go.
6:30 p.m.
Liberal
6:30 p.m.
Some hon. members
Agreed.
6:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
Thank you all for your interventions. Thank you for your patience. I'm sure we'll see you all again one day.
Do we have unanimous consent to let our legislative clerks leave?
6:30 p.m.
Some hon. members
Agreed.
June 10th, 2024 / 6:30 p.m.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
Yes, but the next time they come, they have to bring desserts.
6:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
Thank you.
We're carrying on with Ms. O'Connell. I believe Mr. Gaheer was next, but go on.
6:30 p.m.
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Chair, it made me wonder. Let's also remember that in that meeting, no one questioned the interaction as being about the real threats and real issues that diaspora communities are facing around foreign interference. That was not part of the interaction. It was only afterward, when Conservatives took to Twitter to spin and mislead, that this accusation was made.
It made me think about why the Conservatives would, after the fact, try to distract from what really took place in that meeting. I started to do a little bit of a look at why the Conservatives would rather focus on me and have an interaction about heckling, as they heckle me—the irony is not lost on me— and not an interaction on the very real issues of foreign interference.
Well, let's look at some of the things they don't want me to talk about. Some of those things include the fact that in 2010, it was former prime minister Harper's national security adviser, who we had as a witness on foreign interference, who actually advised and warned about the very real threats of foreign interference. Nothing was done.
It was under Mr. Harper's government that Canada was urged to join other Five Eyes countries to create a parliamentary committee for national security oversight. Again, that advice was ignored.
Actually, the crux of my intervention with Mr. Caputo was the fact that he spoke about NSICOP as the only reason we know about these allegations. My interaction, because I could not understand that they were unaware of the irony, was on the fact that it was the Conservative government that actually refused to create NSICOP, and then actually at one point in the last number of years got upset and removed members and put members back.
To now be using NSICOP when it suits them, after they refused to establish it.... I couldn't contain the irony in that interaction. When their current leader was asked why he did nothing to deal with foreign interference while he was the democratic institutions minister, he essentially said that, well, it wasn't politically in their interest to do so at the time.
When we created the motion to establish NSICOP, Conservatives voted against it. We established the SITE election committee, which is a non-partisan oversight committee establishing a mechanism to alert the Canadian public of foreign attempts to interfere in our elections.
Mr. Chair, our government has continuously implemented legislation to deal with foreign interference. We've taken it seriously since we formed office in 2015.
I've continually highlighted the hypocrisy that Conservatives have shown on this issue, and I find it deeply offensive to mislead and misconstrue what actually took place at this committee and the interactions in a way to bury and distract from the fact that the Conservatives' record on foreign interference is pretty abysmal. I find it deeply offensive to suggest that diaspora communities, which have very real experiences of foreign interference, would be treated in a manner to mislead them about what that actual interaction was. I find it deeply concerning. Frankly, I have faith in Canadians to see through the partisan games that are happening here today.
I'll leave it at that, Chair. I find it incredibly disappointing that we even have to engage in this sort of partisan behaviour on an issue that is so important. However, I will not stand here and allow the mis-characterization of what actually took place to go unchecked.
Luckily, we have video and Hansard to clarify the record.
I'll ask for a recorded vote.
6:35 p.m.
Liberal
Iqwinder Gaheer Liberal Mississauga—Malton, ON
Great. Thank you, Chair.
This motion calls on Ms. O'Connell to apologize to Canadians of diaspora communities that are the targets of foreign interference. I find that very rich, because when we were in that committee and asking questions.... I am a member of a diaspora community that is a target of foreign interference of the highest degree, and I was interrupted by Mr. Genuis and his point of order. That's when this exchange happened.
I agree that Ms. O'Connell's words are being mis-characterized. We really invite all Canadians to watch the testimony and read the Hansard. I don't know if it even captures all the crosstalk that happens within committee. I'll leave it there.
6:35 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I have to say I wasn't there for the meeting in question, but I find it very hypocritical of members of this Liberal Party to cite the testimony of former CSIS director Richard Fadden at our committee last week, when it was members of this Liberal Party, including the current Minister of Health, Mark Holland, who issued a report calling for the resignation of Director Fadden because of his comments, comments for which he has now been vindicated. They were comments that spoke about the threat of foreign interference in Canada and the threat to members of our political class. He even said that members of our political class had been subverted by foreign powers. He was saying this back in 2010.
I want to list off some of the recommendations that the Liberal Party made in its report.
Recommendation 1:
That the Minister of Public Safety and the Prime Minister be held responsible for the Director of CSIS’s unacceptable statements during the interview...
Recommendation 2:
That the Government of Canada renounce categorically Mr. Fadden’s statements and apologize to the Chinese Canadian community, and other cultural communities implicated in and offended by Mr. Fadden’s allegations concerning growing foreign interference in domestic politics...
Recommendation 3:
That the Minister of Public Safety require Richard Fadden to resign [for his statement]...
Recommendation 4:
That Parliament censure the Minister of Public Safety and the Prime Minister for allowing the Director of CSIS to exceed his statutory mandate by making dramatic and irresponsible statements to the media, sowing doubt in many members of the public regarding the probity and loyalty of municipal elected officials and provincial ministers.
Those are just some of the things that the Liberal Party of Canada called for in 2010 when it was attacking the director of CSIS, who was warning us. Now the members have the gall to stand in this committee today and lecture Conservatives about the remarks of Richard Fadden. For 14 years, he has courageously, despite the vilification that these Liberals put on him back in 2010, stood up for our country and defended our country from the threat of foreign interference.
I'm glad to see that he has been vilified today. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
6:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
Do you mean “vindicated”?
Okay.
There being no more speakers....
Go ahead, Mr. Caputo.
6:40 p.m.
Conservative
Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Yes, I agree. This was all caught on camera and Canadians can decide for themselves.
It was actually the media in the back of the room that broke the story in almost identical language to that which was put out by the Conservative Party. I think it was Mercedes Stephenson who reported it first, and it was then corroborated by another reporter who was in the room.
Indeed, Canadians will judge for themselves.
6:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
Are there any further interventions? No.
(Motion negatived: nays 6; yeas 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
The motion is defeated.
6:40 p.m.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
On a point of order, if you seek it, I think you'll find unanimous consent that we not meet on Thursday.
6:40 p.m.
Some hon. members
Agreed.
6:40 p.m.
Liberal