Public Safety Committee on Aug. 28th, 2024

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Okay, but the son applied for a study permit in July 2019, entered Canada in February 2020 and was granted refugee status in July 2022.

However, you're talking about 2024. That seems a bit late in the game, Mr. Gallivan.

Am I wrong? Did you get the dates mixed up?

[Ted Gallivan]

It's possible. You would have to give me a moment to look at the chronology, because I want to be precise. However, I can confirm that he underwent the same screening as the father underwent twice.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Okay.

I have about 30 seconds left. I want to make sure I understand.

Was the enhanced security screening requested for the father and the son? Second, was it done? If so, when did it take place and what were the results?

In terms of the son, the dates seem to be a little confusing.

[Ted Gallivan]

The information about the father is very clear. With the time I have left, I will confirm that, and I will get back to you about the son at another meeting.

I can confirm that the father was screened in 2018 and 2021.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

We understand that.

[Ted Gallivan]

All normal procedures were followed, and a positive response was provided to our colleagues at IRCC.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

In terms of the son, then, you're not able to tell me when the screening took place.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

We'll go now to Mr. MacGregor for six minutes, please.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to join colleagues in thanking our witnesses and the minister for appearing before our committee and helping guide us through this important study.

Minister, my colleague Mr. Caputo touched on this. We received the chronology documents via email only 50 minutes before the start of this committee meeting. As every MP's office routinely does when doing case work, we often request chronology documents on behalf of constituents so we can better understand the particulars of their cases—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Excuse me, Mr. MacGregor. I'm not sure the volume is level.

Can the witnesses hear the questions?

We'll turn up the volume, and we'll start your time over again, Mr. MacGregor.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Chair, I hope the volume is okay before I go into the questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

It's good.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

Minister, the email with the documents that were referred to, the chronology, was received only 50 minutes before the start of this committee. My office routinely requests these types of chronologies to help us with the individual casework of constituents, and we often get them in very short order.

I have a direct question for you, Minister. Given how important this information is to aid this committee in a very important and now very public investigation into this matter, why did it take so long, given that the letter requesting this particular meeting, my letter, was issued on August 7 and here we are on August 28? Can you give the committee a reason as to why these documents were given to the committee so late?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. MacGregor, through the Chair, thank you for the question, and thank you for your participation this morning. I'm happy to see you.

You referred to all of us as constituency MPs ask for chronologies from the immigration department with respect to particular files, and that's a process the immigration department endeavours to provide. I hope that colleagues will understand in this case you're dealing with two individuals who are facing nine very serious criminal terrorism charges and are currently in custody. There is an active prosecution under way and a publication ban issued by the court, so the ability of the immigration department or even CBSA or CSIS to simply produce a timeline necessarily has to go through the filter of the RCMP to ensure we're not prejudicing inadvertently a criminal prosecution. I know lawyers from the Department of Justice were providing advice. Public Safety senior officials were getting advice from lawyers.

Recognizing that it should have been here earlier, Mr. MacGregor, and that I regret, but I wanted to make sure we didn't rush something that inadvertently became in a criminal trial a reason to perhaps have an adverse finding or an adverse result. I wanted to make sure the RCMP and the prosecutors at the Department of Justice were comfortable that we were releasing the maximum amount of information we could without in any way endangering a criminal prosecution or risking violating a publication ban that the court has seen fit to put in place.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I want to join you in congratulating our intelligence service and our police services in successful arrests before what could have been a very brutal attack on Canadian soil. I understand multiple departments are involved in internal investigations right now.

Can you, as the Minister of Public Safety, give the committee and indeed Canadians who are watching this committee a sense of what your expected timelines are for these internal investigations? Is there anything that you can publicly report that you've learned from this and any changes you may have already set in motion to prevent this from happening in the future?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. MacGregor, thank you for that very good question.

You're right. The minute I was briefed on July 24 by senior officials of CSIS and the RCMP on this case, and the RCMP subsequently updated me after the arrests took place, I think on July 28, some four days later, the first thing that I asked officials was to tell me what processes are in place so we can learn from this sequence of events, as I noted, and ensure that any adjustments we need to make in the screening process are imposed as quickly as possible.

This work is being done with our partners at the immigration department. I believe the deputy minister of immigration will be here a little later this morning. My colleague, Marc Miller, will also be before this committee, I think, soon as well.

The challenge is, because of the very integrated nature between the immigration department and CBSA or CSIS with respect to these screenings and information that triggers, as Ted indicated, further review, that process is necessarily going to be rigorous and thorough. I've asked them to produce for me as quickly as possible advice on what, if any, changes we need to put in place. I know my colleague, the Minister of Immigration, also asked his officials to look into the citizenship status of the father. That process also, again I understand from comments Mr. Miller made publicly, is under way.

The problem, Mr. MacGregor, is the backdrop to all of this is this ongoing criminal prosecution, potential further investigations the police decide and a publication ban. The ability to talk about different elements of this work, on the advice of lawyers and the RCMP, is very limited.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Minister. I want to get one final question in related to this.

In terms of our international relations, the European Union has its own database. I believe it's referred to as the Schengen Information System. Of course, Canada has its Five Eyes.

Do you believe incidents like this are going to encourage your government to pursue better collaboration with western democracies such as the European Union in how we share some of that information? Do we have access to the particulars of information databases like the Schengen Information System, and how do we collaborate with those different datasets?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

That's a critical question, Mr. MacGregor, and I'm glad you asked it.

I see in some CSIS briefings references to some of this information. Vanessa is in the best position to quickly tell you. I think she can reassure you that we have access to all of the intelligence data we need to keep Canadians safe.

On specific sets of data, Vanessa, can you perhaps help Mr. MacGregor?

[Vanessa Lloyd]

Mr. Chair, as the minister referenced earlier, in the complex, complex threat environment that we are currently facing, partnerships are a very important tool to be able to counter threats of violent extremism as well as a range of other threats. As the minister alluded to earlier, the service has many partnerships with countries around the world, in fact, over 300 partnerships for 150 countries around the world. That includes daily information sharing through a liaison that happens through our intelligence professionals around the world and leveraging information that can be shared from all types of datasets and collection by those agencies.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

We'll start our second round of questions now with Ms. Lantsman.

Please go ahead. You have five minutes.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Minister, I'm going to jump right into my questions, because you've had a month to answer these questions. You said in your opening statement, “This is the way the investigative and national security system should work.”

Your government issued a visa to somebody who was allegedly in a 2015 ISIS propaganda video and who then planned a mass casualty event outside of Toronto with a target in our country's largest city. The RCMP foiled that plot with intelligence from the French. Are you really telling Canadians that this is how our system should work? He's been here for six years.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. Chair, what I'm saying to Canadians is that the moment the Government of Canada became aware of concerning information regarding this individual, all of the appropriate steps were put in place by CSIS and the RCMP, which culminated in the arrest on the 28th of July and, thank God, as Ms. Lantsman said, the potential for serious risk or violence was averted.

With respect to the information regarding immigration processing, the immigration department will be here later. They are in a position to speak to the specific steps for an applicant, whether for asylum or permanent residency. We're looking at the security checks system—

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Minister, by my count, there are about six security checks in the documents you dumped on this committee 50 minutes before it started.

Do you really think the system is working if somebody like this, who's an alleged ISIS terrorist, who, if he was even a little bit more productive...would have resulted in mass casualties in Toronto? Do you really think that this is how the system should work? Do you really think that this is not a colossal failure of your government?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I am very proud of the work that the RCMP and CSIS did in thwarting this particular case. I think, as Mr. Gallivan indicated, if you look at the tens and hundreds of thousands of these cases that are reviewed every year as people seek asylum, submit asylum claims or apply for various visas, we necessarily rely on the work of our security agencies. We're always looking at ways to strengthen and evolve that posture as the threat context, as Ms. Lloyd said, evolves, but in this case I am satisfied that when the Government of Canada was aware or could possibly have been aware of this information, all of the steps were taken.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Well, they were aware six years ago when he came in. Speaking of that, we heard speculation—