Public Safety Committee on Sept. 19th, 2024

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

We'll go to Madame Michaud, on a point of order.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Just before the minister gave the floor to Ms. Zafar, her microphone was off, so we didn't get the French interpretation of her answer. Could he repeat the few words he said, so that we can have the interpretation?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I would ask the minister to repeat that answer.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I'd be happy to do that.

As my colleague said, there are a number of additional pieces of information that we can request. One thing that wasn't said in her answer in English that I would add is that we can also ask for interviews. If there are risk indicators, we can request police certificates. I didn't want to minimize their importance, but I also didn't want to digress as your Conservative colleagues have done. If additional information is needed, there are a number of ways to proceed.

Biometrics is also a very important component. This is a rather new practice, historically speaking, for screening people who come here to Canada. It's very reliable. It's not perfect, but we verify that data by comparing it with the databases of IRCC and our security partners, whether in Canada or abroad.

That may not be the most reliable interpretation of my colleague's answer, but I did my best.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

Mr. Gaheer, I'll give you a few extra seconds.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, what about a case where, let's say, the individual in question does not have a criminal history; the biometrics come back clean; if there's an interview conducted, that interview is good. They seem like a decent person, but somewhere online, on the dark web—whatever that means—there's a video of them engaging in these kinds of acts. Millions of people want to come to this country, possibly billions, right? Is it possible, even theoretically, to search every single video and every single audio clip that's available online for every single individual who wants to come to Canada?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I'd love to give you my answer on that, MP Gaheer, but it really is up to our security services to speak to the nature and quality of that search. I think they would say it's becoming increasingly easier, but it's still something that is quite difficult and not necessarily routine, especially for clean matters with no flags.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

You may ask one more quick question to make up for the time.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Do the officials have data on how many individuals are denied, possibly every single month, or in the past year?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

We don't have it offhand, but we can provide it to the committee.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

I'd like to see that, because it highlights just how strict our system is and how hard it actually is—despite people's feelings—to get a visitor visa to come to Canada.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Gaheer.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Minister, I know you said that your findings would soon be made public and that we'd find out whether there had been any breaches and, if so, what improvements need to be made. I tend to agree with what was said earlier, that if there were three examples, there may be others. It shows that there may indeed be a gap in the system, and that there may be a need to improve the processes, the security screening and the trilateral program that you talked about.

I can't help but notice that there are more and more permanent residents in Canada and immigration applications. The system is overloaded. As my NDP colleague said, we experience it every day at our constituency offices. We are working with citizens who have been waiting years for their cases to be resolved. Because it's an extremely long process, it's difficult to imagine that shortcuts are being taken to get the work done more quickly. There's a tendency to think of it as a complex and rigorous process. However, when we see cases like this one, we think that it may not be so rigorous, ultimately, and that the process may have been carried out too hastily in some cases.

So what's your observation today? Do you intend to improve the safety system?

Fortunately, disaster was averted thanks to CSIS and the police. However, I don't think we should wait for another disaster to improve or tighten up the immigration process, if that's where there was a gap.

I'd like to hear your comments on that.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

Yes, you're absolutely right, but I wouldn't presume that it's not happening right now either. Terrorist and criminal organizations are very sophisticated, and we have to adapt in real time. This is being done gradually, not only within my department, but also within security agencies. If changes need to be made, we'll let you know in the coming weeks.

Of course, we have to be on the lookout. Canada isn't the only country facing this kind of attack. I don't think it reassures anyone to say that it was an exceptional case. We have an obligation to deliver results. It's a disaster. We all have a responsibility, especially if someone loses their life. So I commend the security agencies for their timely intervention, but it's not necessarily something I'm entirely satisfied with.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

We go now to Mr. MacGregor.

You have two and a half minutes, please.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister Miller, I did take note of your comment that there is no compromise on security, absolutely. I was just curious, though, because in your department's most recent annual report, there is reference to automation technologies being used to help streamline. Do those automation technologies ever intersect with the security screening, and do you have any concerns that it might lead to a gap in the future?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

When it comes to automation, I think the clear conclusion is that it can in no time be a shortcut to any matters of security, particularly those of national security. They aim to speed up the process, for sure, but without compromising these strict security parameters. That's something we have to constantly adjust and adapt to, particularly with the looming use and leveraging of AI and people seeking to come into this country. I think that's a worry that we are looking at and need to be ready for. This is a department that was criticized, I think rightly, for doing a lot by hand. That human aspect can make some errors, but I think the automation can also make some.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I want to get one more in. I think the information leading to the Eldidi arrest may have come from French intelligence. Hopefully, one day, Canada can return the favour and provide intelligence to our allies that prevents a terror attack abroad.

From your position as a Minister of Immigration, I know there's still an internal review going on, but are you fairly satisfied that our international information sharing, particularly amongst our allies, is as robust as it could be?

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I don't think anyone in my position can ever be satisfied. I am confident, though, with significant confidence, that our information agencies are doing their utmost to share. The sharing of information is critical. If we don't have that information, we can't cross-correlate or verify. In order to draw conclusions in a specific case, you would have to put into evidence a number of facts that would qualify why a particular agency may have had some information that was shared and perhaps why we didn't have it.

Again, it's hard to openly speculate on that currently, but again, looking at the set of facts, I'm confident that we acted quickly and that we did the right thing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

Minister, you've been here an hour. We have a five-minute slot and a five-minute slot. I wonder if we can prevail upon you to stay for those.

[Marc Miller, Liberal, Ville-Marie—Le Sud-Ouest—Île-des-Soeurs, QC]

I have a competing engagement.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

In that case, we will suspend and bring in the next panel.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I call the meeting back to order.

Thank you, all. We'll resume the meeting at this point.

I would like to welcome the new officials joining the officials from IRCC at the table.

From the Canada Border Services Agency, we have Ted Gallivan, executive vice-president. From the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, we have Vanessa Lloyd, interim director. From the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we have Michael Duheme, commissioner.

Welcome, everyone. Thank you for being here.

We'll start straight away with questions. This panel has no opening statements.

We'll go first to Ms. Dancho. Please, go ahead.