Evidence of meeting #120 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was study.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ralph Goodale  Former Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, As an Individual

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting 120 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. I would like to remind participants of the following points. Please wait until I recognize you before speaking. All comments should be addressed through the chair. Members, please raise your hand if you wish to speak, whether you're participating in person or via Zoom. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can.

We're engaged in a review of the foiled terrorist plot in Toronto and of the security screening process for permanent residence and citizenship applications. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on August 13, the committee is resuming this study.

I want to remind members that there is currently a section 517 publication ban in place. A section 517 publication ban prohibits the publication of any information, evidence or representations made at or in anticipation of a bail hearing. Any bail conditions, reasons of the bail court and any evidence or materials relied upon at the bail hearing are prohibited from disclosure.

I would now like to welcome back our witness.

As an individual, we have the Honourable Ralph Goodale, former minister of public safety and emergency preparedness and current High Commissioner of Canada in the United Kingdom. Welcome, sir.

I now invite Mr. Goodale to make an opening statement.

Ralph Goodale Former Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, As an Individual

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee.

After more than 30 years in the House of Commons and attending more committee meetings than I can count, both as a member and as a witness from time to time, it is interesting to be back in this environment once again. I hope that your important work on security screening produces useful recommendations.

With respect to the specific events that sparked this meeting, I am not in a position to have first-hand knowledge of the subject matter. As you know, ministers, and diplomatic officials, for that matter, do not engage directly in active agency operations. I recall the words of former minister Jason Kenney, who often pointed out that skilled, professional public servants completely independent from politics were always best placed to do the necessary work. Ministers should expect to be kept informed, especially about contentious matters, and they can provide guidance through ministerial directives. Otherwise, they do not intervene.

Within the constraints of a police investigation, court proceedings and a publication ban, I hope I can offer some context and perspective gained from on-the-job experience.

For four years, from November 2015 to November 2019, I had the opportunity to work closely with the RCMP, CSIS, CBSA and other relevant agencies to achieve two fundamental objectives: keep Canadians safe, and safeguard our rights and freedoms. That period produced a number of policy innovations, increased funding and new legislation supporting law enforcement, national security and intelligence, including new and clarified powers to combat threats and risks.

Now, for the past three and a half years, as the high commissioner in London, I’ve had the chance to see the international end of this work. I meet periodically with the U.K. Home Office and its police and security agencies. I’ve participated in a key British security task force. I receive security briefings at least weekly from our own agencies, drawing on input from across the Five Eyes. I visit the highly secure venues where our Canadian security, intelligence and law enforcement teams operate in the U.K. It’s clear that they are really good at what they do. They are highly valued and trusted by their international colleagues.

It’s also clear that the challenges confronting Canadian agencies also exist in the United Kingdom, across the Five Eyes and in the countries with which we have co-operation agreements. We all have similar issues to confront. Close collaboration with global partners is absolutely indispensable for our security and for theirs. It’s a two-way street of mutual benefit, and it works. That’s because global partners know and trust one another. We and they are all working toward the same ends, and sometimes on the very same files. No one can do it alone. Everyone understands the huge importance of teamwork and reliable, timely information. The instant something of value is identified anywhere, it is relayed immediately to those who need it.

As the public record shows in this case, our Canadian agencies made excellent use of the information as soon as it was available to protect the public and take the suspects into custody. Getting such information in usable form at the earliest possible moment is always a prime priority. Searching the Internet, especially the dark web, is a huge worldwide task. The technology is often impenetrable. The service providers are often unhelpful. The volume of gruesome, ugly stuff to be assessed is daunting. It's like looking for a needle in a cesspool.

I worry about the well-being of the skilled professionals, Canadians and others, who tackle this vital work every day for national security, intelligence and law enforcement. They deserve strong support. Their successes must be applauded, along with the international partnerships that empower them. We all need to be committed to continuous improvement.

Mr. Chairman, thank you for your attention. I look forward to our conversation.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, sir.

We will start our questions at this point with Mr. Lloyd, please.

Go ahead for six minutes.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

Thank you for your testimony, High Commissioner.

I agree that we need to support our hard-working civil servants who are on the front lines. Importantly, we also need government to implement policy to give those hard-working civil servants the tools to protect Canadians.

In a chronology given to us on the entry of the alleged terrorist Ahmed Eldidi, he was allowed into the country in 2018 on a temporary resident visa. Later that year, he submitted an asylum claim, which was ultimately granted.

You were the Minister of Public Safety at the time. Is that correct?

3:40 p.m.

Former Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, As an Individual

Ralph Goodale

In 2018, yes, I was.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

Thank you.

In 2018, which is the same year that Eldidi entered the country and a year before he was granted asylum status, your government stopped requiring police clearance certificates from certain countries of origin. When this change was introduced and when you were minister, did you have decision-making power over that decision? Did you have any concerns about the decision to not require police clearance certificates from certain countries of origin?

3:40 p.m.

Former Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, As an Individual

Ralph Goodale

Mr. Chairman, I heard this point being made in a previous meeting of the committee. I have not been able—from the long distance that I am at—to verify the facts of what exactly is being alleged here. It is something about which I have no direct knowledge because I was Minister of Public Safety, not Minister of Immigration. There's a difference in our ministerial responsibilities.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

Thank you.

I understand how ministries work. I understand that Public Safety and Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada work very closely together.

A policy decision was made under your government when you were Minister of Public Safety to stop requiring police clearance certificates from countries where there is a very high risk.

Was this not concerning to you at all?

3:40 p.m.

Former Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, As an Individual

Ralph Goodale

One of the focuses that we had in that particular year, as I recall it, was making the use of biometrics universal across the system. That would be within the purview of the public safety portfolio, whereas a decision about the other matter would not.

In fact, Mr. Chairman, when you look at the basic approach to security screening as it existed in 2018, as it exists now, as I understand it, and as it existed before our government came to office in 2015, the fundamentals of that system are the same now as they were then. There has been no diminution in the quality of the investigations.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

I'd suggest, Minister, that removing police clearance certificates is a pretty serious policy change.

Last year over 682,000 study permits were approved by this government. That works out to be a permit approved every 45 seconds.

Now, I understand that you weren't the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, but in your experience as a minister, do you think that processing a permit every 45 seconds, when we're dealing with people potentially coming from countries that are high risk, is adequate time to vet people?

3:40 p.m.

Former Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, As an Individual

Ralph Goodale

The experience that I've had with the people who do this work—at least the part of it that falls under Public Safety, CSIS, CBSA, the RCMP and so forth—is that they are very skilful. They do their work extremely conscientiously. If they err, they err on the side of being cautious. They take the responsibility of public safety with the gravitas that it deserves.

I found that to be the case under the previous government prior to 2015. I found that to be the case of the same officials doing the same job in the same way when I was their minister. I think [Inaudible—Editor] both before and after 2015, take it very seriously. Politics has nothing to do with this.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

I agree with you, High Commissioner, that hard-working civil servants are certainly trying their best, but when they're having essential tools taken away from them, like having security clearances from countries of origin, we're really taking away tools from them. In this case, I believe it was a tool that could have potentially been used to prevent an alleged terrorist from coming to this country in the first place.

However, your former colleague and the current Minister of Public Safety said that in this case, the system worked as it was supposed to.

The fact is that our immigration system let in an alleged terrorist and ignored at least four risk factor flags. It then later gave him citizenship and gave student visas to two other alleged terrorists.

Do you believe that this is truly how the system is supposed to work?

3:45 p.m.

Former Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, As an Individual

Ralph Goodale

Mr. Chairman, I think the ministers have said very clearly that the reason they're conducting this review at the present time is to find out if, specifically in this case—or more broadly, systemically—there are gaps that need to be filled.

Judging by what appears in the public media to this point about these particular cases—and we're all operating under an information limitation of what can be put in the public domain and what cannot—no one had any information about a terrorist connection to these individuals until about June of this year.

None of our agencies had prior access to any such information, and neither did the Americans, the British, anybody in the Five Eyes or any of our other allies. When the connection was identified in about June of this year, it was immediately imparted and acted upon. The public was protected, and the suspects were arrested.

Can all of that process in the circumstances of this case be improved upon? That is what the ministers are conducting their review to find out.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you.

We'll go now to Mr. Gaheer, please, for six minutes.

Iqwinder Gaheer Liberal Mississauga—Malton, ON

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, High Commissioner, for appearing before the committee.

For the sake of the folks who are watching online, Mr. Lloyd just made a point that there's a student permit approved every 45 seconds. There's no way you can approve a visitor visa or a student permit in 45 seconds. It takes months and possibly years, as my constituents know, to get a student permit approved. There's a security check, an eligibility check and finances, amongst other things, that are checked. No, it does not take 45 seconds to approve a student permit.

Moving on to the actual meeting today, High Commissioner, when you were the minister of public safety, were you ever briefed on Ahmed Fouad Mostafa Eldidi?

3:45 p.m.

Former Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, As an Individual

Iqwinder Gaheer Liberal Mississauga—Malton, ON

Can you reasonably conclude that you weren't briefed on Eldidi because Canada, like our Five Eyes partners and like-minded allies, was not in possession at the time of any intelligence linking Eldidi to ISIS?

3:45 p.m.

Former Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, As an Individual

Ralph Goodale

That's correct. CSIS and other agencies have testified that the information first became available to Canadian authorities in about June of this year.

Iqwinder Gaheer Liberal Mississauga—Malton, ON

How confident are you that, once Canadian intelligence became aware of the threat posed by the two individuals, they took all reasonable steps to quickly and efficiently neutralize the threat posed to Canadians?

3:45 p.m.

Former Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, As an Individual

Ralph Goodale

I'm obviously not privy to the facts of the case, but judging by the transcripts of this committee, which I have read, and judging by the public media reports, the various Canadian authorities that you would expect to be engaged—CSIS, CBSA and the RCMP—acted very quickly to make sure, first of all, that the public was protected and, second, that the individuals were arrested and brought into custody as rapidly as possible.

Iqwinder Gaheer Liberal Mississauga—Malton, ON

High Commissioner, you were named public safety and emergency preparedness minister in 2015, after a decade of Conservative cuts to those different agencies that you took charge of.

Can you speak about the landscape and what it looked like when you first became minister of this portfolio? What work did you undertake as minister of public safety and emergency preparedness to ensure that our intelligence, national security and law enforcement agencies were working properly and were resourced properly?

September 26th, 2024 / 3:45 p.m.

Former Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, As an Individual

Ralph Goodale

It involved a pan-government effort. I, of course, was involved. The Department of Finance was involved in our analysis and investigation as well. Sister departments like immigration were involved as well.

As I said earlier, I think in terms of the nuts and bolts on the street and at the ports of entry and so forth—the operations of our agencies—they are undertaken by extremely dedicated individuals, who strive every day to do the very best job they can possibly do and to find ways to improve their performance and make sure that we are all constantly getting better at the incredibly important task of public safety in an incredibly difficult world.

In 2008, 2014, 2015 and 2016, ISIS was a growing threat in the world. Our government recognized that we needed to make sure that our agencies were properly equipped and in a position, with the capacity, to keep Canadians safe and to safeguard the security of the nation.

Broadly speaking, we undertook to do three things. One was to bring in innovative new policies where that would be required. An example would be this whole point of making biometrics broadly used across every dimension of what we do in the security checking process. It was used in some cases but not all. By 2018, we had made it universal.

We also improved information sharing with our international partners. We took steps to upgrade the quality of what we do under cybersecurity. Some of that was policy changes. Some of that was legislation. We passed, if I remember correctly, with the help of all parliamentarians, at least 12 pieces of major legislation, including the anchor piece, Bill C-59.

Over that period of four years, we also increased the funding available to these agencies by about 42% from beginning to end, which the government has continued to improve upon as well.

You need to make sure you have the best trained people, that they have the legal mandates and the legal authorities to do what they need to do, that they are publicly accountable through all of your oversight and review agencies, and that they have the enthusiasm of knowing that their government and the population stand behind them in this absolutely incredible mission of keeping Canadians safe.

Iqwinder Gaheer Liberal Mississauga—Malton, ON

Thank you, High Commissioner.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for six minutes.

Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Goodale, for being here today. We appreciate it.

The members of the committee wanted to invite you to appear to hear your comments, since you were the minister at the beginning of the timeline, when these people arrived in the country, or at least one of them—