Evidence of meeting #125 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was russia.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chris Alexander  Distinguished Fellow, Macdonald-Laurier Institute and Canadian International Council, As an Individual
Justin Ling  Freelance Investigative Journalist, As an Individual
Nina Jankowicz  Chief Executive Officer, American Sunlight Project

Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

We will go now to Mr. Julian.

Mr. Julian, please go ahead for six minutes. Welcome back to the committee, ever so briefly.

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Thank you.

Thanks to our witnesses for stunning testimony.

Ms. Jankowicz, I'd like to say you're a bit of a folk hero to many of us in Canada for standing up for democracy and for transparency at this very difficult time.

I'll start with Mr. Alexander. That was stunning testimony.

David Pugliese is currently a journalist with Postmedia. Is that not true?

I understand from what you said in your testimony that we lost track after 1990 of whether or not there are other payments that have taken place since then.

4:30 p.m.

Distinguished Fellow, Macdonald-Laurier Institute and Canadian International Council, As an Individual

Chris Alexander

The reason we have these seven documents or the eight pages that are before you in translation is that they came out of a Ukrainian archive. The KGB, which was a Soviet-wide organization, had branches and archives in Kyiv up until the breakup of the Soviet Union. We have this. It's an incomplete set of documents even from that period, I think, because of that period.

What happened after 1991-1992 is in Moscow documents that we don't have.

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

This testimony, which states that a journalist is involved, is quite explosive.

Have you considered the possibility that other journalists in Canada are also involved in such a network?

4:30 p.m.

Distinguished Fellow, Macdonald-Laurier Institute and Canadian International Council, As an Individual

Chris Alexander

Unfortunately, yes.

Over the past few years, we've realized that Russia is very active in a number of sectors, including the media. There are several cases in Germany of journalists who have recently received significant amounts of money to publish pro-Russian things. There's Tenet Media. There are also potential cases in Canada.

Further to Ms. Jankowicz's comments, I would say that we need to proceed in the right way. Some journalists raise doubts and tend to take sides in an issue. They may have such links, but it's not proven. However, it's something our governments need to think about and take stronger action.

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Thank you very much.

I'd like to go to Mr. Ling and Ms. Jankowicz now.

You raised the issue of facts as opposed to fiction. We are currently going through a U.S. election process in which Tim Walz has been the victim of horrific false allegations invented and amplified by Russian disinformation networks.

Ms. Jankowicz, I know you've spoken about the censorship that takes place on X. A BBC documentary on Modi, articles critical of the Turkish government and critical comments about Donald Trump have all been censored by X.

In this type of explosive environment, where the means seem to be greater and greater for Russian disinformation, how do we take action promptly to ensure our democracy is protected?

I'll start with Ms. Jankowicz.

4:35 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, American Sunlight Project

Nina Jankowicz

This is a wonderful question and one that is extremely pressing, because, as you said, we have unelected officials—owners of these platforms—making content moderation decisions not only for the American town square but also for the global town square.

This, again, is where I think oversight and transparency mechanisms can play an important role in shining a light on what makes it into our feeds and in educating people. I think a lot of people who use Twitter or other platforms like it don't understand that Elon Musk, who claims to be a free speech crusader, is actually suppressing content for his authoritarian buddies in places like India and Turkey and, frankly, pumping up Donald Trump's content as well. Oversight and transparency are key to that.

Unfortunately, though, it's not necessarily a quick fix. This is more of a generational thing. Until we have a viable alternative in a more democratically minded social media platform—I mean small-d “democratically”, not a partisan platform—there's not much we can do. There are some regulatory regimes in other countries. Australia is where there are transparency powers that hold Musk and others to account for the business decisions they make in surfacing some content while suppressing other content. I like those systems. I don't know what they would look like in the Canadian context, necessarily.

Relying on this, rather than putting the burden of liability on the platforms—which might over-moderate and remove legitimate speech—is probably the best solution.

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

We heard testimony about the Psychological Defence Agency in Sweden, which has had to combat Russian disinformation.

What are your thoughts about how rapidly we need to move to fight back? Is having a digital resilience strategy or a psychological defence agency a practice we could potentially bring to bear to protect our democracy here in Canada?

4:35 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, American Sunlight Project

Nina Jankowicz

Was that directed at me, sir?

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

It's to Mr. Ling.

4:35 p.m.

Freelance Investigative Journalist, As an Individual

Justin Ling

I think we can over-engineer a solution, to put it quite simply.

I hear a lot of conversations about the need for better media literacy, for example. I know that there has been a lot of faith put into initiatives, some directed by Google, to do prebunking, particularly for foreign information operations, and frankly, I think a lot of those models couldn't hurt, but I think the single greatest thing we can do to fight foreign information operations— and just to keep hitting this drum—is attribution.

More than that, if I can just extend this a little bit, it is to build faith that if these operations happen, the government, our security services or both will tell us. Beyond that is building faith in our responsible media, given some of the testimony we've heard today. Our responsible media is very, very important.

There have been, I think, some very careless comments made over the last year around the issue of foreign interference that suggest that journalists in Canada are on the take for China or other countries. I think that does a lot of damage at a time when we need to be investing faith and trust in media, especially when they earn it, to help us combat these malign foreign efforts. This is doubly true for the social media platforms where some of this fake content lives and exists and in some cases thrives.

This is all to say that doing this sort of psychological defence is super-important, but I think we need to make sure that the public can have faith that they are being told the whole truth about who's targeting us, and when and how it's happening.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you. I'm going to have to cut you off there.

We're going to start our second round. We're running out of time here, so we'll end this round after Mr. Julian. We will start with Mr. Motz for....

Go ahead, Ms. O'Connell.

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

Can I suggest that if the witnesses are available, we go our full hour on this? This is important. We have three witnesses who have provided a lot of information. I'd rather cut into the second hour than cut this short.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

We will go through an hour, but I'm happy to extend a little bit if the committee's in favour of that—

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

If the witnesses are available—

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

—if the witnesses are available.

We'll carry on with a normal round.

I understand that Mr. Ling may have to leave earlier. If you do have to leave, thank you for your time, and leave when you need to. We will carry on.

We will get the full hour that we're supposed to have here, despite our problems with technology.

We'll go now to Mr. Motz for five minutes.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Thank you very much, Chair.

We have heard repeatedly that a lot more can be done to combat Russian disinformation.

Mr. Alexander, how would you say that Russian disinformation has shaped Canadian public discourse? How have the propaganda tactics changed from 20 to 25 years ago to today? How does that impact that public discourse?

4:40 p.m.

Distinguished Fellow, Macdonald-Laurier Institute and Canadian International Council, As an Individual

Chris Alexander

First, on how it changed, during the Cold War in the 1990s everyone was alive to Soviet propaganda—maybe in the period of glasnost less so, but it was a real issue. There were real measures to counter it. There was no access to Russian television. There might have been some shortwave broadcasts that you could get at home, but not on your television set, radio and so forth.

When the Cold War ended and the Soviet Union broke up, we discarded those defences and decided we were all going to work together to build up free media and cover the world. CNN went to Moscow and we got rid of Radio Canada International. We didn't think those Cold War institutions were necessary.

Then the social media platforms came along, and I don't think there's been a greater gift given to malign actors, particularly to states but also non-state actors, to influence our publics than those platforms—especially X, which is totally unmoderated now, but the others as well.

You heard from some of them. They don't do enough. They don't know.... Things have to reach a certain threshold for them to act, so our defences are weaker. Social media is what we call an “attack surface”, which these malign actors—Russia, China, Iran and others—are using in ways we still don't fully understand, and then everything else supports that.

They will get an influencer whose video will go on all these platforms. They will throw stones into the millpond to see which one creates the most disruption, gets traction and goes viral, and then they use their assets to spike that up. They will try to target—“astroturf”, as Justin Ling put it—certain individuals because they don't like them.

What has been the impact? I think it has polarized our politics and destroyed the moderate middle that used to be the glue that held together our political debates—not destroyed it but weakened it.

I haven't mentioned them all, but look at the G7—not Canada but our colleagues and allies in the G7. Every one of those countries has a political party or parties that are co-opted by Russia to some extent. Look at Germany, the Alternative für Deutschland, Sahra Wagenknecht's party: She spouts Kremlin propaganda all the time, and the SPD quite often does so as well. I could go through all of them.

It's a disaster. That would not have happened without social media, without the investment of tens of billions of dollars from Russia and others, and if our defences were not so weak.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

This question is for all three. In the early stages of this study, we had a witness come ask us a question. The question was, “Why is Canada still a safe haven for Russian operatives?”

I start with you, Mr. Alexander. Keep in mind that I have only a minute or so left and I'd like to get responses from the other witnesses as well.

4:45 p.m.

Distinguished Fellow, Macdonald-Laurier Institute and Canadian International Council, As an Individual

Chris Alexander

To give a very simple response, since the major invasion of Ukraine began in early 2023, we haven't expelled, to my knowledge, a single Russian diplomat. There are 60-plus of them in the country. I used to take part in such expulsions. I went to the foreign ministry in Moscow. I did it in Ottawa several times for much lower offences, much more innocent forms of undiplomatic or espionage activity. Now they're invading a country and we haven't touched them, and Canada has a special relationship. It's bizarre. It deserves to be questioned.

There should be action. There are 60-plus of them here and, I think, 14 of our diplomats there. We should pursue parity and take action, and it's leverage that we have. When they do something to Canada and we find this kind of interference in Canada, we should be exacting a price from their side: That's the only language they'll understand.

4:45 p.m.

Freelance Investigative Journalist, As an Individual

Justin Ling

I can give you the really quick answer, which is that they know we won't call it out. They think we'll be inclined to think that they wouldn't do it here and accuse each other of being responsible for it instead of the Russian government.

4:45 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, American Sunlight Project

Nina Jankowicz

I agree with Mr. Alexander. I think it's pretty shocking, given the thousands of lives that Russia has taken in Ukraine and the large Canadian Ukrainian diaspora, that there have not been any expulsions since February 2022.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, Mr. Motz.

We go now to Mr. Gaheer for five minutes, please.

Iqwinder Gaheer Liberal Mississauga—Malton, ON

Thank you, Chair. I will split my time with Ms. O'Connell, so maybe you can cut me off when there are about two or two and a half minutes left.

Thank you to the witnesses for their testimony.

My questions are for Ms. Jankowicz.

In your opening testimony you said that there was a need to update our laws regarding social media influencers. Can you expand on that a little bit? Do you mean that in terms of the Canada Elections Act or of the regulations for social media companies in particular?