Public Safety Committee on Oct. 31st, 2024

[Dr. Wesley Wark]

I'm happy to go first.

In response to that question, I would say two things.

I can't speak, of course, on behalf of the Sikh community. I would hope that the Sikh community would take considerable comfort from some of the revelations about the details of Canadian diplomatic and national security efforts in terms of trying to convince the Indian government to cease its covert operations in Canada. We have learned a great deal about that. You, all the members of this committee, have learned an extraordinary amount about that, in terms of the testimony you got a couple of days ago. We learned more about it in the foreign interference inquiry and from the RCMP press conference on Thanksgiving Day. I think there are some demonstrations there that are important, not just to the Sikh community, but to Canadians as a whole, to see their government taking strong action diplomatically and taking action on the national security front.

The question about Canadian officials being brushed off should be taken seriously, in the sense that Canadian officials, at the end of the day, created a policy around responding to being brushed off that was designed to bring a stop to these Indian covert activities.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. O'Connell.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for two minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Granger, it has been said that Canada is a target because of its large Sikh community. In 2022 alone, it welcomed 118,000 migrants from India. The ties between the two countries are quite strong.

Right now, lives are at stake. We heard from witnesses in the previous panel that they know they're very much at risk. They're not just feeling it.

What could be the medium and long-term repercussions on relations between India and Canada of what is happening in the Sikh community at the moment?

[Serge Granger]

In the medium and long term, it will depend in large part on how this problem is resolved within the Indian diaspora.

I have a great deal of sympathy for Sikhs, who are under pressure and under threat. However, it's also important to understand that another half of the Indian diaspora feels threatened to some extent. I remind you of the Air India incident in 1985, which was the largest terrorist attack in Canadian history. I would also note that two weeks ago an Air India flight landed in Iqaluit because of a threat.

Both sides feel unsafe. What can be done, then, to address the challenges of Indian interference? We need to consider a more holistic approach that doesn't favour one group at the expense of the other. It's dangerous to want to solve one problem, as sometimes that creates another problem.

So I come back to my proposal, which is, in the medium term, to calm things down within the Indian community, where there is a lot of tension and political violence at the moment. It's all well and good to say that we're going to pass legislation, but that doesn't solve the fundamental problem that angers India and prompts it to intervene in Canada. That is what we could do first.

Over the longer term, we need to better understand our legal system in line with what distinguishes us from the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, which, to a certain extent, allows separatism to be criminalized. In Canadian law, that is clearly not the case. The idea is to make India and the entire planet understand that it is not a crime against humanity to want to create a state called Khalistan, or to create any other independent state in other parts of the world.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

We'll now go to Mr. MacGregor to wrap up.

You have two minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Professor Wark, in our first hour, we had two Sikh men here from their respective organizations. I'll paraphrase them. Essentially, what they were trying to really hammer home was that the revelations made by the RCMP on October 14 were finally confirming and validating what the Sikh community has known for decades about India's reach in Canada.

In my riding of Cowichan—Malahat—Langford on Vancouver Island, there is a large South Asian population. My riding is home to Paldi, which has one of the oldest Sikh temples in British Columbia.

I keep going back to the NSICOP report. There was one sentence in there stating that our foreign adversaries find that Canada has been a “low-risk, high reward” arena in which to operate. Can you expand on how we can flip those terms? How do we make Canada a high-risk, low-reward environment? You talked about CSIS and its resources being stretched. In this final minute, would you like to add some thoughts on things that this committee could recommend to the Government of Canada?

[Dr. Wesley Wark]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor. I'll try to be brief—briefer than I have been in response to some other questions.

First of all, I would point out to the committee that the concept of foreign interference in Canada being low-risk, high-reward is a CSIS formula. It's a formula that serves CSIS's interests and desires to constantly bring the government's and senior decision-makers' attention to CSIS's needs and operations. To be honest, I think it's an exaggerated way of understanding things. I don't see a lot of evidence for it.

The things we can do are those that I've tried to outline. Again, very briefly, we have to pay much more attention to stopping the covert activities of Indian diplomats in Canada. That's a key mission, and it requires a lot of good intelligence. We have the capabilities. We just need to pay more attention to that issue.

The other thing—and this will come out in Justice Hogue's final report—is that we're going to have to devote many more resources to, and be much more strategic in, outreach to diaspora communities that may be targeted by foreign interference from whatever direction. We have some tools to do that, but I think everyone would regard those tools as inadequate at the moment. Having the capacity to engage with diaspora communities as a two-way flow of information about concerns and best practices, and how the Canadian government and the security intelligence community can support vulnerable diaspora communities, is going to be vital going forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

Thank you to our witnesses for their testimony today. It's very helpful and very much appreciated.

With that, we are adjourned.