Evidence of meeting #127 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was india.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Moninder Singh  Spokesperson, British Columbia Gurdwaras Council
Balpreet Singh  Legal Counsel, World Sikh Organization of Canada
Serge Granger  Director School of Applied Politics, Université de Sherbrooke, As an Individual
Wesley Wark  Senior Fellow, Centre for International Governance Innovation, As an Individual

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 127 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. I would like to remind participants of the following points. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. All comments should be addressed through the chair. Members, please raise your hand if you wish to speak, whether participating in person or via Zoom. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on October 22, 2024, the committee resumes its study of electoral interference and criminal activities in Canada by agents of the Government of India.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses for the first hour. We have, from the British Columbia Gurdwaras Council, Moninder Singh, spokesperson. Mr. Singh is also a spokesperson for the Sikh Federation of Canada. From the World Sikh Organization of Canada, we have Balpreet Singh, legal counsel, by video conference.

It being Diwali today, namaste, and happy Diwali to everybody.

I now invite Mr. Moninder Singh to make an opening statement of up to five minutes.

Please go ahead, sir.

Moninder Singh Spokesperson, British Columbia Gurdwaras Council

Thank you.

I'd like to begin by acknowledging that I come to you from the unceded, occupied territories of the Kwantlen, Katzie and Semiahmoo first nations. I'd like to thank them for the opportunity to live and work on the lands they've been caretakers of since time immemorial.

I'd also like to recognize that today marks the anniversary of the onset of the first brutal and horrific incidents of Indian state-sponsored, planned and orchestrated violence against the Sikh community, in November 1984—a genocide in which thousands of Sikhs were murdered across India. The continuation of this state violence, oppression and now transnational repression has placed its foot firmly in Canada. The challenge before all of those who call Canada home is how to stop it.

State-sponsored violence is nothing new for India. In their report “Protecting the Killers: A Policy of Impunity in Punjab, India”, Human Rights Watch states, “from 1984 to 1995 the Indian government ordered counterinsurgency operations that led to the arbitrary detention, torture, extrajudicial execution, and enforced disappearance of thousands of Sikhs.” This is important today, because of the continuation of this violence in the form of transnational repression, which has taken the lives of Canadian citizens in this country. There should be no question about what India's policy has been towards Sikh activists for the last 40 years. India has engaged in these types of behaviours for decades.

However, successive governments have ignored this or brushed it under the rug, in order to pursue trade or closer ties with India. Repression is going unchecked, and the international community's response, or lack thereof, has emboldened India to reach even further. Canada's role is that it effectively granted Indian intelligence networks impunity to operate in Canada, which emboldened them to escalate their violence. As a case in point, when it was known that a nexus of agents of Indian origin were operating in the Vancouver consulate in 2017, very little to nothing was done to stop them at that time. This eventually led to the assassination of Bhai Hardeep Singh Nijjar in Surrey on June 18, 2023. All of this evidence is pointing to the fact that India is continuing its transnational repression in a very violent form. The evidence on record demonstrates that India is directly targeting activists for assassination and coordinating generalized violence against the entire community across the country. The acts of violence...through the revelations of the RCMP on October 14.

The reality of the situation in the community is something I can speak about personally. I am one of the individuals in Canada who have received multiple duties to warn regarding the threat of imminent assassination against their lives. This obviously places an individual in a very dangerous situation. I was removed from my home, where I have children who are minors. I couldn't be around them. The reality of working within your community while exercising your charter rights of freedom of speech and expression becomes blurred. Communities suffer greatly, not just families. The lack of response we receive in those situations is also very problematic. We have law enforcement agencies that aren't able to provide much help. We don't know where the threat is coming from. We don't know how to react to this type of threat within Canada, either.

All of these things, over the last two years, have been right in front of us. Mr. Nijjar, myself and dozens of other Sikh Canadians are forced to choose between retreating from public life and supporting our communities, or continuing our work and risking our lives as Sikhs and as people who stand up for human rights—which I believe everyone in this room would also adhere to. There was no choice. We had to continue our work. We had to continue to speak out. We had to continue to exercise those rights of freedom of speech and expression enshrined within the charter. That is the only option we have, and we continue to do so. We will do so going into the future, as well.

This is what an authoritarian regime like India looks like, and this is what they want—to intimidate and shut down dissenting voices. However, that's not going to be possible in Canada, and it's definitely not going to be possible for the Sikh community in Canada.

Transnational repression tactics include assassination attempts, threats and intimidation of Sikh activists. The assassination of Bhai Hardeep Singh Nijjar is a blatant example of how deeply India has penetrated into Canada, not only with assassinations but also by undermining general elections and the nominations of candidates in political parties—all the way to leadership races in that sphere, as well. We have evidence presented at the foreign interference commission that verifies all of this. India has conducted these operations for over 40 years. I myself have come out several times, over the last two years, stating that the Sikh community knows India is interfering in Canada.

I'd like to read you something:

India conducts intelligence operations in Canada at two levels—directly through its consulates in Toronto and Vancouver and indirectly through infiltration of the Canadian Sikh community. India's target is a well-organized international Sikh lobby that is the financial, intellectual and administrative backbone of the drive for a homeland in Punjab.

According to the sources, India's intelligence activities in Canada include the spreading of false information, the use of paid informers and the instigation of activities to discredit the Sikh separatist movement.

This is not something that was put out in the last six months. This is from November 28, 1984, in the Globe and Mail in Canada. Canada has known about Indian interference for 40 years. Canada, its media and the Sikh community all have known about it. The unfortunate reality is that little to nothing has been done about it.

In closing, we have four things that we think would help protect Canadians: the suspension of security and intelligence agreements with India in the short term as a short-term mechanism to ensure there is safety within Canada for all Canadians; a public inquiry into the assassination of Mr. Nijjar, along with India's activities and the revelations of violence that have been put forward by the RCMP on October 14, because, as far as we know, India is the only country to inflict this much violence in Canada on Canadian citizens on Canadian soil; the prosecution of conspirators and perpetrators and the imposition of targeted sanctions against Indian diplomats who are believed to be involved in this, especially those who have been removed from this country; and support for the Sikh community in combatting the rise in anti-Sikh hate, which has a direct link back to India's misinformation and disinformation campaigns against Sikhs.

Finally, I implore all of you to ask me questions about the real lived experience of Indian foreign interference. If anyone here remains silent on this issue, it will actually speak volumes as to where they stand and whom they are seeking to protect. We're all here as Canadians. We're all here in order to protect this country and its freedoms.

Right now, it's the Sikh community that's facing the brunt of this violence, but in the future it can be any community. There must not be party lines as we work together to combat this type of hate, this type of violence, on Canadian soil. This is a life-and-death situation for the Sikh community, for sure, but it's also the sovereignty of Canada that's being undermined, and that of all Canadians. Your response here now will be indicative of the priority you give our lives and of your commitment to your elected office to safeguard the interests of this country first.

Thank you.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

We go now to Mr. Balpreet Singh for five minutes, please.

Balpreet Singh Legal Counsel, World Sikh Organization of Canada

Thank you.

Good afternoon. My name is Balpreet Singh. I'm legal counsel for the World Sikh Organization of Canada.

Today, as we approach the 40th anniversary of the 1984 Sikh genocide in India, we're here to discuss India's continued targeting of Sikhs in Canada, but it's absolutely essential to understand the context of this ongoing interference.

For decades, the Government of India has targeted Sikhs and other minorities without any consequences. Tens of thousands of Sikhs were killed by the Indian state with no accountability or reckoning. For 40 years, Sikhs in Canada have known that India engages in foreign interference and targets our community. This has been a truth that's been an open secret.

Open Secrets is also the title of a book by a former Indian diplomat and intelligence officer, M.K. Dhar, who was stationed in Ottawa from 1983 to 1987. In his memoir, he admits that his mission was to “penetrate select Gurdwaras”, establish assets within the Sikh community and make “a few friends amongst Canadian members of Parliament”. Several other books and articles have documented India's espionage and interference aimed at Canada's Sikhs. Canada has long been aware of this interference but has often looked the other way or treated India with kid gloves.

This interference continues to take several forms. The first is visa manipulation. The primary tool India uses is the Indian visa. Individuals are denied visas for expressing views that India deems objectionable, while others are coerced into actions or statements in exchange for visas. Some individuals have been forced to sign predrafted letters supporting India, which are then used to extort them. Even Canadian politicians have been subject to these tactics. Other forms include intimidation of relatives in India, surveillance of individuals and events, and media manipulation and disinformation, creating narratives that favour the Indian government's position.

The impact on the Sikh community has been profound. Sikhs are coerced into avoiding discussions about Khalistan, a sovereign Sikh state. For India, any dialogue about Khalistan is labelled as extremism or terrorism, and this is a nuance that's often misunderstood in the West. India has worked very hard to make “Khalistan” a scary term. Supporters of Khalistan have faced torture and disappearance in India. India seeks to make that repressive approach normal and export it to Canada; however, here we have freedom of expression, and that's protected, of course, by the charter.

The current tensions that we're seeing can be traced back to 2015, when a notable number of Sikhs were elected as MPs and also included in cabinet. This was seen as a threat by India, which quickly framed the Canadian government as being influenced by Khalistani extremists. Our report in September 2023 in The Bureau, by Sam Cooper, indicated that, in 2017, CSIS was aware of increased Indian diplomatic activities targeting the Sikh community, including monitoring, vote manipulation and visa coercion.

Ottawa allegedly halted actions due to political sensitivity and the impending 2018 Canadian delegation to India. That delegation, as we know, was subsequently targeted by India, which used the false narrative of Sikh extremism to taint the visit. Canada attempted to appease India by signing the framework for cooperation on countering terrorism and violent extremism, which was then portrayed by India as a crackdown on Khalistan supporters.

Sikhs in Canada have repeatedly reported Indian interference to law enforcement and CSIS, but it's not clear that it had any effect. In June 2022, I personally informed CSIS that India might attempt to target Sikh activists under the guise of gang wars, based on Indian media narratives. After Ripudaman Singh Malik's murder in July 2022, I warned CSIS of risks to the lives of Hardeep Singh Nijjar and other activists. Duties to warn were issued, but no real protection was provided, leaving many feeling resigned to their fate.

The Prime Minister's announcement in Parliament last year and the RCMP's recent statement were a welcome breath of fresh air and feel like vindication for our community. However, India's interference now extends to our democratic institutions and elected officials. Indian influence is seen in nomination races and elections, and there are allegations of MPs receiving funds from India to raise specific issues in Parliament. Make no mistake, India's actions reflect a hostile and rogue nation acting with impunity.

Canada and its allies must re-evaluate their relationship with India. Turning a blind eye or handling it with kid gloves is no longer an option. We must continue to expose and counter Indian interference as we've begun to do over the past year. This is a moment that's absolutely critical for our community but also for our country. Canada must commit to shutting down India's foreign interference, which has continued unabated for the past 40 years.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, sir.

We'll start our round of questions. Our first round is with Ms. Dancho.

You have six minutes, please.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to both witnesses for being here and for their excellent testimony.

I deeply appreciated your remarks. You both touched on the concern that, when duties to warn are issued, there is a lack of protection following them. Can you both go into some detail of what that experience is like? If you could choose, what would you want to see from police and others for additional protections?

Mr. Moninder Singh, would you like to start?

4:05 p.m.

Spokesperson, British Columbia Gurdwaras Council

Moninder Singh

Yes, definitely. I can speak from experience, with multiple duties to warn issued against me.

One of the problems we see is that there is very little information on where the threat is coming from, so you don't really know what to look out for. There are very few resources provided when it comes to direction as to how you can safeguard yourself. There are simple things, like getting a security camera and being aware of your surroundings, but when you have somebody from law enforcement telling you that you have an imminent threat of assassination against your life, those are not things that are going to protect anyone living in Canada, as we saw in the case of my friend, Mr. Nijjar, who also received the same warning, with me, in July 2022.

What we'd like to see is actually going deeper. Why does this risk persist in the first place? We feel like an inquiry to actually understand India is what's needed first. The safeguarding is really just putting band-aids on a bleeding wound that won't stop right now, with what India is doing. An inquiry will go deep enough into the situation to understand how deeply India has penetrated into Canada and where in our electoral systems, in our academia, in our media and in our politics they're interfering. I think that's the only way to understand them and then be able to counter them. I think the rest of it is really band-aid solutions.

The law enforcement agencies don't have the ability to put cars in front of people's homes 24-7. I have two years of duties to warn that are persisting. To expect the Canadian government or the law enforcement agencies to station multiple officers with me at all times is just not feasible for this country and it shouldn't have to happen.

I think we need to go to the root of the problem versus the band-aid solutions, which will just maybe keep people safe for the time being, but they are not getting to the actual cause of the whole situation, which is India.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you, Mr. Singh.

Mr. Balpreet Singh, do you have anything to add to that?

4:10 p.m.

Legal Counsel, World Sikh Organization of Canada

Balpreet Singh

I'll just briefly add that I've spoken to a number of people who have received these duties to warn. You are visited by law enforcement. You are given a piece of paper to read, which is then taken back. You are not told what the source of the threat is. You are not given any real resources to protect yourself. You are told that you must change your routines and take precautions, but what those precautions and changes to routines would look like is not clear.

These people feel abandoned. They feel a little bit helpless and they feel stigmatized. If this information goes out into the community, they don't want other people to know, necessarily, because then they won't feel safe being around in those same spaces.

It's a very unsatisfactory process. I'm not sure how much it actually helps.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you for that.

Mr. Moninder Singh, you mentioned your family and the impact on your family. The steps as outlined just now by Mr. Balpreet Singh.... I can't imagine people just being at home, getting a knock at the door and then kind of being left to their own devices, especially when they have children and a spouse at home. Can you just go into a bit more detail about the impact that has?

I appreciate what you're saying about getting to the root cause. I agree, but imminently, are there any things that could be done, particularly given that this is a very heightened moment? Do you have any comments?

4:10 p.m.

Spokesperson, British Columbia Gurdwaras Council

Moninder Singh

The reality becomes that your whole life changes. Coming into rooms like this, you start thinking whether there is safety here. If it's an imminent threat of assassination—as law enforcement and its highest level of national security, through the INSET division, is telling us—am I putting people in this room at risk by coming here? Can I go to my kids' schools? Can I go to their practices, their recitals and their games?

It may feel like these are minor things until they happen to you. Your whole life flips upside down with things like that and you don't want to be around people. The reality of the situation becomes that you want to protect people around you, especially those people you care about, and even those you don't know—probably even more, because they have nothing to do with this.

We're thrust into this situation. I think that in the immediate sense.... What we saw with Mr. Nijjar was that he changed his routines. He did everything he could. He did everything that you could possibly do to try to protect yourself in that situation.

The only thing he didn't do, which none of us will do, is go silent. I think if we don't go silent, they're going to keep coming. I don't believe there's anything—aside from a personal security detail that would be provided to individuals at a very extreme cost to our country—that would really keep people safe, from my two years of experience now.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you.

Do you feel there's anything more that should be done to hold people who are responsible for this accountable?

4:10 p.m.

Spokesperson, British Columbia Gurdwaras Council

Moninder Singh

Again, I would go back to the inquiry, to understand who's actually accountable. We've heard everyone from Mr. Modi to Amit Shah, through to David Morrison earlier this week naming the highest levels of Indian authorities who are involved, so I think we definitely need to do that.

One of the things I mentioned at the end was that diplomatic sanctions against the Indian intelligence officials and the diplomats who have already been expelled from this country would help for sure.

I think that, ultimately, we have to figure out what's going on here. What's going on in our backyard, and how deeply has India penetrated here? I think that's the only way to keep all Canadians safe. This actually went way beyond just a focused group of individuals. It spread out to violence in public. It spread out to business owners. It spread out to members of the Sikh community and also the broader South Asian community. It could go wider than that if it's not checked. There's no reason why extortion wouldn't then just go to all Canadians, if we let gangs from India come into this country and operate at the behest of the Indian government.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, Ms. Dancho.

We go now to Mr. Chahal for six minutes, please.

George Chahal Liberal Calgary Skyview, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank both witnesses for joining us today and for their opening statements and the important testimony they've provided.

I'm going to go to the root cause. Why we're here is interference by a foreign government. In this case, the Indian government is targeting members of the Sikh community in Canada. That is why we are here today and why we need to discuss this important matter. You've shown courage, both of you, in talking openly to this committee to address this very important issue. I'm shocked and surprised that members who are elected to our Parliament, who are from our community, from the Sikh community, or their heritage is from India, are not here, particularly from the Conservative Party, to discuss this important issue. I actually find it quite shocking as a member of the community.

You talked about the deep penetration of India and targeting Canadian citizens, members of the community here who are engaged in political activity or just exercising their charter rights to freedom of speech.

I'll start with Moninder Singh first, and then I'll go to Mr. Balpreet Singh.

You both mentioned that nomination and leadership races are of concern. Do you believe that the Indian government has targeted nomination and leadership races in Canada in recent history?

4:15 p.m.

Spokesperson, British Columbia Gurdwaras Council

Moninder Singh

Absolutely. From what we've seen at the foreign interference commission, all of this has come up.

We're not going to focus on an individual party, but we would say it's all through our general election system, our nominations, our party leaderships, influencing people in bureaucracy, all the way through. I firmly believe it's everywhere. I don't think it's limited in any of its scope. I think India, as the foreign interference commission has stated, will find people who lean towards them, who are actively supporting them on many of their initiatives, or people they can control or manipulate in some way. They will push them forward and support them in their candidacy or nomination.

I'm a firm believer that it's everywhere. I don't think we can limit it to any one individual or one party. I think this is an issue for all of Canada and its systems right now.

George Chahal Liberal Calgary Skyview, AB

Mr. Balpreet Singh, I have the same question for you.

4:15 p.m.

Legal Counsel, World Sikh Organization of Canada

Balpreet Singh

We have heard about these situations where individuals.... I'm aware of one person who ran in a nomination who was approached. He was told to soften his tone around India and was offered funding and support. I'm aware of a number of these sorts of situations, but it's all whispers behind the scenes. I personally feel that it's shocking that this is the case.

I'll go as far as to say this. When you have a problem, you're told to visit your MP, talk to your MP about the problem. If you don't know who your MP is working for anymore, how do you feel comfortable talking to them? That's really the situation in our community.

George Chahal Liberal Calgary Skyview, AB

Thank you for that.

I know the conversation has been happening throughout Parliament and across the country that leaders of Canadian political parties should get their security clearances to know what's happening within their parties and have the appropriate intelligence to take action. Do you believe that all Canadian elected officials, leaders of our political parties, should get their security clearances?

I'll start with you, Moninder Singh.

4:15 p.m.

Spokesperson, British Columbia Gurdwaras Council

Moninder Singh

I would probably go so far as to say that anyone who could possibly get that clearance should try. At least we'd know what's going on.

I wouldn't get into the semantics of who or why or where, but we're watching closely and we're quite concerned about the fact that we can be having very serious situations that are occurring in Canada. We have a lot of information that can be released. We see the Prime Minister and others who are actually speaking to the issue, so there is no muzzling going on if you are privy to the information that's being provided to you.

We would actually expect everyone, especially party leadership, to have that clearance, because then you can have a real conversation. When you don't get the clearance.... One of the things being spoken about in the Sikh community—I'll be very blunt—is that people who don't want to know can actually walk away from a situation, saying, “Well, I never knew.” That type of excuse is not going to fly.

I hope that's not what's going on. I don't pretend to know the inner workings of parties, but our expectation, I think, as Canadians, is that every party leader would have that clearance.

George Chahal Liberal Calgary Skyview, AB

I'm assuming you're talking about Mr. Pierre Poilievre, the leader of the Conservative Party, who has refused to get a security clearance to have the full information. He's the only leader who has refused that.

Mr. Balpreet Singh, I have the same question for you.

4:20 p.m.

Legal Counsel, World Sikh Organization of Canada

Balpreet Singh

I would concur. I think all party leaders should have that clearance and should receive that information.

My initial inclination was that this information should be made public. We need to know which MPs are working for foreign governments, but I appreciate that there are intelligence considerations and that's probably not going to happen. However, at the very least, our party leaders should know, so they can take actions within their own parties.

George Chahal Liberal Calgary Skyview, AB

Thank you.

I'll go back to you, Mr. Moninder Singh.

You talked about the four things we need to do. You talked about support for anti-Sikh hate. You talked about MPs. As Mr. Balpreet Singh just mentioned, you may go to your MP's office and you're not sure who's actually serving you when you go there.

Does it cause you concern that you cannot trust leaders of the parties to support your community because they don't have the information or clearance? Is it concerning that members have made—

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Your time's up.

George Chahal Liberal Calgary Skyview, AB

Okay.