Public Safety Committee on Nov. 7th, 2024

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Damoff.

Ms. O'Connell is next in the speaking order.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thanks.

l'll pass it to the next speaker, but I ask to be added to the end again.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Thank you, Ms. O'Connell.

The next speaker on the list is Mr. Lloyd.

Does anyone know where Mr. Lloyd is?

We're going to the next speaker, then. It is Mr. Baker.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thanks very much, Chair and colleagues, for welcoming me to the committee.

I thought it was very important that I have a chance to participate in the discussion today—especially today. Today is 1,000 days since Russia's further invasion of Ukraine. That is many more days than Vladimir Putin thought it would take to conquer Ukraine, but it is 1,000 days too many, in my view. This should have never happened, and the world should have given Ukraine the help it needs to win this war a long time ago.

That said, I think there are a number of reasons why that assistance hasn't been there for the people of Ukraine—the assistance necessary for them to win. I think a big part of why that assistance hasn't been there is what is being discussed at this very committee. Specifically, what I'm talking about are Russian interference, misinformation and disinformation. This affects Canadians. It affects Americans. It affects Europeans and people around the world, as the members of this committee well know. It is impacting the decisions of key allied nations and the degree to which, and ways in which, they support Ukraine.

As I've said before in the House—I know many colleagues have spoken about this in the House of Commons—the fight in Ukraine isn't just about the Ukrainian people. Supporting the Ukrainian people is the right thing to do, but it's also the right thing to do for Canada. Ukraine's victory is very essential to Canada's security. If Russia wins, they won't stop at Ukraine. We know this because Vladimir Putin has said so. If Russia retains the approximately 25% of Ukraine it holds today, that's a victory for Russia, and it means we're all under more threat. Canadians will be facing Russian aggression, whether it's in Europe with our NATO partners, in the Arctic or somewhere else around the world.

I'll come back to the topic we're discussing with the committee. It's why I think this subject of Russian misinformation and disinformation—the way they are being used to manipulate people and influence governments around the world—is at the core of what needs to be understood and researched, in order to make sure we help the Ukrainians win.

This committee has heard from a number of experts and witnesses on this topic. Some have been more forthcoming than others, as I understand. Some folks have done a lot of excellent work on the impact of Russian disinformation and what I was talking about a moment ago. One of those groups is an organization called DisinfoWatch. Some of you may know the folks involved with DisinfoWatch. Marcus Kolga is the one I know best. He co-authored a study on this very issue. I want to share with you some of the findings from this.

Again, the reason I'm sharing this is that I think the attempt to shorten the component of the study on Russian interference is a very bad thing. I talk to members, a lot of Canadians, people who support Ukraine and members of the Ukrainian Canadian community. They want us doing more studies and more investigation, and to raise a greater profile of the role of Russian misinformation and disinformation in Canada and around the world—not less. I think the attempt to shorten or limit that aspect of the study is a dangerous thing.

I'd like to share with you a few reasons why I feel this way. I'm going to read segments of a report by DisinfoWatch:

In Spring 2024, DisinfoWatch and Canadian Digital Media Research Network conducted a survey of 2,127 Canadians to assess their exposure to several leading Kremlin narratives about Russia's war against Ukraine and to understand the vulnerability of Canadians to these narratives. We found that:

Most Canadians have been exposed to Russian [foreign misinformation] narratives, with 71% of Canadians having heard at least one of the narratives, with an average exposure of 2.1 narratives.

A substantial portion of Canadians exposed to Kremlin narratives believe them to be true or are unsure of their falsehood. For example, 70% of those exposed to the narrative about financial aid being misappropriated either believe it or are unsure.

Let me just replay that. Seventy per cent of Canadians who were surveyed by DisinfoWatch who were “exposed to the narrative” that financial aid to Ukraine is “being misappropriated either believe it or are unsure” whether it is true. Think about what impact that has on Canadians as they think about whether Canada should be continuing to support the Ukrainian people, if 70% of them are thinking that maybe that aid is being misappropriated. That's all coming through a Kremlin narrative.

I'll continue to read:

We found a marked difference in susceptibility to Russian disinformation along political lines. Conservative supporters, who report the highest exposure levels to Kremlin narratives, are also more likely to believe in them compared to their Liberal and NDP counterparts. For instance, only 55% of Conservatives exposed to the “Ukrainian Nazis” narrative believe it is false, compared to a higher rejection rate among other political groups.

I'll get into what I mean by that. This is a summary of some of their findings:

Since Russia's initial invasion of Ukraine in 2014, the Kremlin has steadily intensified its information warfare targeting Ukraine, NATO, and the Western democratic world, both inside and outside of Russia using foreign information manipulation and interference (FIMI).

Over the past decade, the primary objectives of Russian FIMI—

That's foreign information manipulation and interference, but I'll just call that FIMI for short in the future:

—are to:

Erode public support for Ukraine and NATO;

Undermine unity among NATO allies;

Discredit and intimidate governments, communities, journalists and activists that are critical of the Kremlin;

Exploit existing divisions within democratic societies in order to undermine social cohesion and trust in our governments, media and civil society.

Let me pause there for a second. These four things that they've talked about, these are the objectives. This is what Russia is trying to do in Canada every day:

Erode public support for Ukraine and NATO;

Undermine unity amongst NATO allies;

It wants to basically pit us against other NATO allies, and we've seen that play out in the world over the last number of years in a number of ways.

Number three is “Discredit and intimidate governments, communities, journalists and activists that are critical of the Kremlin”. There are many examples of this. I'll speak from the perspective of a member of the Ukrainian Canadian community. I know many members of the Ukrainian Canadian community, especially leading members—those who are the strongest and most vocal advocates of support for Ukraine—who've talked about the fact that they have been intimidated or that there have been attempts to intimidate them because they've been critical of Putin, the Kremlin, or Russia's invasion and further invasion of Ukraine. We've seen that play out in a number of ways.

The fourth thing is “Exploit...divisions within democratic societies in order to undermine social cohesion”. Even if you step back, take the perspective away from the war in Ukraine, and just focus more on domestic matters, even if that's your focus and your priority, which is understandable for many folks, this is designed.... DisinfoWatch has concluded that this is designed to undermine our trust in each other and our willingness to work together and to come to common understanding as to how we can work together to solve problems, no matter what those problems are, whether that's housing, the rise in the cost of living, climate change, or disinformation just like we're discussing here today.

I'll continue reading from the report:

The Kremlin narratives that we tested are those that regularly feature on Russian state controlled media platforms like RT, Sputnik and in statements by the Russian government, officials and diplomats.

They include:

“Financial aid sent to Ukraine is being pocketed by corrupt officials within the Ukrainian government.”

“Weapons we send to help Ukraine defend itself are just being sold on the black market instead.”

“Ukraine and NATO are the ones who started the war with Russia.”

“Russia is at war because it is trying to defend itself from Ukrainian Nazis.”

“Russia is going to win eventually, so sending aid to Ukraine is only delaying the inevitable.”

“Ukraine should give up their eastern territory for peace since the people living there are Russian anyway.”

We've all heard this stuff. We've heard this, right? We've heard it from the Kremlin and we've heard it from Putin. But what worries me is that we are hearing it here in Canada, because Kremlin disinformation and misinformation is so pervasive and so powerful and so sophisticated.

I'll continue to read from the report:

Research has demonstrated that these narratives are amplified inside western societies, including Canada, by regime aligned influencers, who may or may not receive benefit from doing so, targeting audiences on both ends of the political spectrum. The reach of these influencers on social media is not limited by borders. Canadian audiences are exposed to content posted by influencers in Canada, the US and beyond.

I think that's one of the important things for us to take note of. There's been a lot of discussion—I know this has been discussed at this committee and even publicly in the media—about the indictment of folks related to Tenet Media and that sort of thing. The focus has been, to a great extent, at least in the media coverage of it, about the impact this is having on how the information propelled by Tenet Media, allegedly on behalf of the Kremlin, has been used to influence American audiences.

The reality is that it's not just American audiences who consume the media that Tenet is putting out there. It's Canadians as well, probably in quantities proportional to our population. It's affecting Canadians as well. These are just the examples that we know of. Tenet is an example that we know of, but there undoubtedly are many others.

I'll continue to read from the report:

Polling of Americans who identify as conservatives, has demonstrated a likely vulnerability to Russian government narratives which may correlate with a dramatic decrease in support for Ukraine among right leaning Republicans voters.

A May 2024 Pew Research report about US public support for Ukraine found a growing partisan gap between Republican and Democrat voters over the course of the war. Polling during the first months of the war found that just 9% of Republican voters believed that the United States was providing too much aid to Ukraine. That number increased to 49% in April 2024.

That is really important. It went from 9% to 49% in over two years.

In the same timeframe, Democrats who believed that the US is giving too much aid to Ukraine increased from 7% to 31%. The same Pew report also found that 55% of Republicans lacked confidence in President Zelenskyy, in contrast to 65% of Democrats who said they are confident in Ukraine’s president.

Similar trends have been observed in Canada. A February 2024 Angus Reid poll found that the number of Conservative voters who believed that Canada is giving too much to Ukraine doubled from 19% in May 2022 to 43%.

While multiple domestic and geopolitical factors may have influenced these results, the impact of Russian information and influence operations on public opinion should also be considered.

Our analysis aims to assess Canadian public vulnerabilities to each of the key Russian...narratives above, across the Canadian political spectrum.

Who is exposed?

In March 2024, the Media Ecosystem Observatory, on behalf of the Canadian Digital Media Research Network, surveyed a nationally representative sample of Canadians (n = 2,127) about their exposure to six leading Kremlin Foreign Information Manipulation and Interference...narratives regarding Russia’s war against Ukraine. If respondents had heard of these narratives, they were asked if they believed them to be true or not.

Nearly half of those surveyed had heard the Kremlin’s false claim that “Russia is at war because it is trying to defend itself from Ukrainian Nazis,” while only 26% of Canadians had heard the Russian narrative that falsely claims, “Weapons we send to help Ukraine defend itself are just being sold on the black market instead.”

A disproportionately high number of Canadians who identified as Conservative Party voters (54%) reported being exposed to the Kremlin narrative that falsely claims, “Financial aid sent to Ukraine is being pocketed by corrupt officials within the Ukrainian government.” Out of the six Kremlin...narratives tested, Conservative Party voters reported the most exposure to five of them.

The report has a chart that I encourage all members to take a look at. It demonstrates to what extent Canadians are exposed to these different false narratives by the Kremlin. It also shows it across party lines. It shows to what degree Conservative, Liberal and NDP supporters or voters have been exposed to these things.

I will continue with the report:

The Kremlin has regularly accused Ukraine’s government and people—as well as the Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian governments and people—of being neo-Nazis to justify its invasion of Ukraine in 2014 and its latest full-scale invasion of Ukraine. Vladimir Putin claimed in February 2022, that he had ordered Russian forces to invade Ukraine to “de-Nazify” the country. Ukraine’s president is Jewish and unlike Russia and many European nations, not a single far-right party holds a seat in Ukraine’s parliament.

False claims about the presence of neo-Nazis in Ukraine have been repeated by Kremlin aligned influencers in the democratic world, including Canada. For example, populist US Congresswoman and conspiracy theorist, Marjorie Taylor Greene has amplified this narrative to her millions of followers on social media.

This narrative has been identified by both Erik Møse, Chair of the UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine and leading human rights legal scholar, Yonah Diamond as an incitement to hate.

70% of Canadians exposed to the narrative believe that it is either definitely or probably false. However significantly fewer Canadians exposed to the narrative who identify as Conservatives believe this narrative is false, with just 55% rejecting this false Kremlin narrative.

There's a chart in the report. Just to recap for those watching at home and trying to follow along with what I'm saying, the false narrative Russia's put out is that Russia is at war because it is trying to defend itself from Ukrainian Nazis.

What DisinfoWatch points out in its report is to what degree people believe this statement is true or false. For example, of Conservative voters, 25% believe it's true, 20% are unsure and 55% believe it's false. Of Liberal voters, 18% believe it's true, 12% are unsure and 70% believe it's false. Of NDP voters, 4% believe it's true, 9% are unsure and 87% believe it's false.

I think what we can take away from this is that these false narratives and disinformation are obviously being targeted at Canadians across the political spectrum, but they're having a greater effect on supporters of certain political parties than they are on others. In this particular case, most voters who believe it's true are those who tend to vote Conservative.

The report continues:

The Kremlin and its allies have regularly blamed Ukraine and NATO for starting the war with Russia., This narrative is a central component of the Kremlin’s information war against Russians, the Western world and Ukraine.

By portraying Ukraine as a “puppet” of NATO and alleging Western responsibility for the war, Russia seeks to frame its invasion as a defensive measure rather than an act of aggression. This narrative aims to legitimize Russia’s actions on the international stage and deflect blame. It also exploits existing anti-Western sentiments and skepticism about NATO’s role as a defensive alliance in Canada and other western societies. This narrative also aims to fracture alliance cohesion and unity.

Inside of Russia, this narrative is deployed to bolster domestic support for the war by fostering a sense of external threat and nationalistic fervor. State-controlled media in Russia amplifies these themes, portraying the conflict as a struggle against Western encroachment and the defense of Russian-speaking populations.

Just as I mentioned earlier, they have a chart in which they repeat the false narrative the Kremlin is putting out there—that Ukraine and NATO are the ones who started the war with Russia—and they break down to what degree folks who support different political parties tend to believe this to be true or false.

I'll start with the NDP this time. Of NDP voters, 72% believe it's false. Of Liberal voters, 66% believe it's false. Among Conservative voters, only 38% believe it's false. Clearly, this narrative, like the previous one, has had greater traction with and is deemed more credible by Conservative voters.

The report continues:

False narratives about western support for Ukraine being misappropriated by Ukraine officials are deployed by the Kremlin to undermine support for Ukraine and weaken Western resolve. Both international and domestic audiences are targeted by this narrative.

Internationally, the Kremlin seeks to erode trust and unity among countries providing aid to Ukraine. By casting doubt on the integrity of the Ukrainian government, Russia hopes to undermine the willingness of these countries to continue their financial and military support. It is intended to foster skepticism and hesitation among Western voters and policymakers, potentially leading to a reduction in aid. It exploits existing concerns about corruption in Ukraine, amplifying these worries to create a perception that assistance is futile and misused.

Domestically, the narrative serves to justify Russia’s actions and distract from its own endemic corruption. By portraying Ukraine as inherently corrupt, the Kremlin shifts the focus away from its own governance problems and frames the conflict as a moral crusade against a corrupt neighbor. This serves to consolidate support among Russians by reinforcing negative stereotypes about Ukraine and justifying the invasion as a necessary intervention.

Ultimately, the Kremlin's goal is to weaken Ukraine's position by reducing international support, thereby making it more vulnerable and easier to influence or control.

I want to stop there for a second.

Anybody who looks at Russia's governance.... There are few countries in the world that are more corrupt than Russia. Vladimir Putin has complete control of not just the political apparatus in Russia but also the judicial system and the media. Anyone who has done business in Russia knows corruption is rampant. This point the report is making.... Accusing the Ukrainians of being corrupt, while making it out as though Russia is therefore justified in invading Ukraine, is taking attention away from Russia's corruption and Vladimir Putin's control of everything.

I'm reading from the report here, regarding the narrative that financial aid sent to Ukraine is being pocketed by corrupt officials in the Ukraine government.

It says:

70% of Canadians [which is significant] exposed to this narrative either believe or are unsure if this narrative is false—indicating a significant failure to raise awareness of the facts about this issue. Over half of Conservative supporters believe this narrative to be true, compared to 29% of Liberal voters. Among the various Russian narratives included in this poll, this particular narrative was the second most believed among Conservative supporters.

I continue to read from the report:

According to the BBC, the Kremlin has created fake listings for the sale of Western weapons on dark web sites to give the false impression that Western weapons being donated to Ukraine are being sold off on the black market by corrupt members of Ukraine's military. There is no evidence of this. This narrative targets both international and domestic audiences, aiming to provoke doubt and reduce public support for Ukraine.

Internationally, the Kremlin seeks to erode trust and solidarity among nations that are providing military assistance to Ukraine. By falsely claiming that weapons that are donated to Ukraine are being misused and sold illegally, Russia hopes to foster skepticism and hesitation among Western policymakers and citizens. The narrative exploits existing concerns about accountability and the potential for the proliferation of arms and it aims to decrease the willingness of these countries to continue their support.

Wait one moment, please.

I would like to move to adjourn the meeting.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Is it a motion to adjourn debate or adjourn the meeting?

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

It's to adjourn the meeting.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

There's a motion on the floor to adjourn the meeting.

Do we have unanimous consent?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Can we just vote?

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

It looks like we have unanimous consent.

The meeting is adjourned.