Public Safety Committee on Nov. 7th, 2024

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Madam Chair, I have a quick point of order.

I'm very, very comfortable here today.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

Thank you, Mr. Shipley.

Ms. O'Connell, are you done, or do you want me to go to Mr. Chahal, who is next?

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

That's great. I'm not done.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

That's why I'm asking you, Ms. O'Connell.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

That's not a problem. They can keep interrupting.

Again, we will continue to speak and stand up for our communities because this is what's deeply important. We've just started that testimony. Given the fact of Mr. MacGregor's amendment, the Conservatives have shown very clearly to all Canadians their intentions. I think that was an accident. I think they meant to do this in camera, but unfortunately they've been able to show Canadians just exactly who they want to stand up for.

I will stop here and allow my other colleagues to speak, but I'd like to be added to the list on the amendment.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

Thank you, Ms. O'Connell.

Mr. Chahal.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have a few questions that came to mind right away when this motion was dropped by my Conservative colleagues. The first thought was why we would want to avoid having this important conversation that this committee has been studying. For me and my community members in Calgary Skyview, right now this is the most important issue affecting them, their families, their lives, their safety and their well-being.

I find it quite insulting after we heard the testimony the other day at this committee, which I had the opportunity to sub in on. We heard Mr. Moninder Singh's really impactful testimony. We also heard from Balpreet Singh from the World Sikh Organization. They both provided testimony that members of this committee should take to heart.

I'm glad Mr. MacGregor brought in the amendment to clarify what I think the Conservatives were trying to do to get away from studying foreign interference in our elections. Even the study today, in which Mr. Pugliese talked about the impact on him of the disinformation or the attempts to discredit his work to bring accountability and transparency to the Canadian public, was an important conversation on the impact of Russian disinformation.

However, to just skip over, in this motion, prior to the amendment the Conservatives brought forward, and not include India.... In the study that the public safety committee is doing on the electoral interference and criminal activities in Canada by the agents of the Government of India, it's my understanding we've only had two of six meetings. For Conservative members to avoid studying that important issue is quite insulting to Indo Canadians, South Asians of Indian descent or those from the South Asian subcontinent who have experienced foreign interference not just over the last number of weeks but for decades.

Conservative members must know that we, as members of the Sikh community, faced a Sikh genocide that occurred 40 years ago. This was an important conversation that we had last evening about men being murdered and women being raped, killed and burned alive. Our community lived these horrific actions that took place 40 years ago, which are still something members of the community are asking to get justice for.

I was at an event last night with Mr. Singh, the leader of the NDP, who very clearly stated how he intends to bring this forward to the House of Commons. Personally, as a member of the Sikh community, I stated that I think this is something that should be brought forward and that members of our Parliament should consider supporting, and I hope they unanimously do support it once we see the motion he brings forward in the House of Commons.

However, the intent of it is extremely important and it directly ties into the study we are conducting on electoral interference and criminal activities in Canada by the agents of the Government of India. At the last committee meeting I sat in on, I was astonished that Conservative members could not even utter those words and that they focused on duties to warn of potentially dangerous situations. That is what I heard. They did not talk about the impact on communities—on South Asian communities—here in Canada, and they did not utter one question to any of our witnesses about the impact of that foreign interference on them.

I'm proud to say my colleagues from all other parties, the Bloc, the NDP and the Liberal Party, did ask those tough questions and did hear the testimony provided.

I heard last night that Mr. Genuis stated at the World Sikh Organization event how the Conservative Party is taking this issue very seriously. If folks were there, they would have seen the crowd and its response to those comments.

Members of the community are asking why the Conservative leader, Mr. Poilievre, will not get a security clearance. Why has he avoided getting a security clearance? The Conservative member said publicly last night that they take the issue of Indian interference in Canada seriously, and today we see the complete opposite. We see Conservative members trying to find a clever way, which wasn't very clever in my opinion, of trying to avoid studying one of the most important studies, I would say, that this committee is studying.

I say “one of” because of the study on auto theft, which I think we're in the process of concluding. I know that this is a very important study for the folks in the GTA. I know that members in the GTA want that study completed so the report can be brought back to the House. It is an issue that I hear about from many friends and family members who live in the GTA, in terms of the importance of how to deal with auto theft.

Also, then, the issue we've seen this committee study as to Russian election interference and disinformation is also a very important study. For me personally, we need to take election interference seriously, foreign interference in our elections. If members of the Conservative Party want to avoid it, they need to be clear on why they want to avoid studying foreign interference in Canadian elections. Is it what was stated last meeting? For members from the Conservative Party who weren't here on that day, our witnesses clearly said that they have concerns about interference in the nomination races of the Conservative Party of Canada and in the leadership campaign. Those are the words of the witnesses who attended and provided important testimony at our last meeting.

The impact on community members and communities was also raised at the last meeting. The suspension of security agreements was a concern brought forward. I think we really need to dive a bit deeper at this committee on how information is shared between our government and other governments. One of the members at the last meeting mentioned that they want a public inquiry into the assassination of Bhai Hardeep Singh Nijjar. For folks who don't know, that was the president of the Surrey gurdwara who was assassinated on the gurdwara premises last year.

Recently, the RCMP brought forward information showing that they've arrested a number of individuals, but also showing that the Government of India has had interference and has targeted many other Canadians, one being the witness who came to testify at this committee the other day. Why do Conservative members not want to have a conversation and not hear from witnesses who will shed light on what's happening here in Canada on how Canadians are being targeted? This targeting is not something that has just started happening over the last few weeks or in the last year or the last few years. This has been going on for decades.

This is very important. One of the members there, Mr. Balpreet Singh did mention this, and Mr. Moninder Singh mentioned this as well: anti-Sikh hate and what's occurring in Canada today with members of the Sikh community being targeted or labelled as terrorists.

A Conservative MP called me a terrorist because I'm from the Sikh community. Maybe it was because I support Calgarians who are asking for justice when their families are being killed in Gaza. Yes, I support those family members and those communities; of course I do, but to target an individual...that's me as a member of Parliament who's being targeted by Mr. Majumdar. I find that shocking. Is that individual targeting other members of communities as well and calling them terrorists? That is promoting disinformation and misinformation, but that's also promoting hate toward members of our community. As a member of the Sikh community, I find that quite offensive.

The issue of anti-Sikh hate is one example I can share from my own perspective, but when community members are threatened over going to their place of worship, as we've seen over the last number of days, whether you're from the Sikh community or the Hindu community, there is fear within those communities.

For Conservative members to try to cover this up by not doing the study is shameful. I would love to hear from the leader of the Conservative Party about why he has asked members of this committee to cover this up and why he won't get his security clearance. Why does he want to cover up this study that's being done here at this committee? It's the job of this committee to bring forward studies, and this study was agreed upon to study the impacts, as this committee has done, of electoral interference and criminal activities in Canada by the agents of the Government of India.

Mr. Balpreet Singh left me some important information from the event I attended. I want to go into the importance of why the World Sikh Organization is one advocacy organization that has wanted to have a further conversation and provide information at this committee. I'm lucky that I have this information leaflet that really goes into detail about their advocacy efforts and why this disinformation campaign and the promotion by foreign governments of anti-Sikh rhetoric and hate is something we have to combat. Canadians, and I think maybe even with our study that we're having right now, should really seriously look into the impact on the members of the Sikh community.

There are a number of issues that come to mind. I could look in here and bring forward the RCMP case of the freedom to wear a dastar. Many of you may not know what a dastar is. It's a turban. My colleague Mr. Iqwinder Gaheer, who is next to me, proudly wears his dastar. In the 1990s, the first member of the RCMP to wear a dastar was Baltej Singh Dhillon.

Let me tell you, at that time, there was a big debate across this country on whether Mr. Dhillon should be allowed to wear his dastar in the RCMP. I can tell you who was trying to make sure he could not wear his dastar: members of the Conservative Party and the Reform movement. They brought forward petitions to ensure the member could not wear a turban in the RCMP.

I think, for committee members, it's important to know that our former prime minister, Mr. Harper, wrote a letter asking Canadians that—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

On a point of order, Madam Chair, I just want to remind the committee that the House had the opportunity to set up a special committee on India so that we could discuss these important issues, and it was the Liberals who opposed that happening.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

Thank you, Mr. Lloyd.

Mr. Chahal, go ahead.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Yes, Mr. Lloyd. It wasn't actually the reason why, I think, we are studying it here at this committee, and if you want to avoid having the conversation of Mr. Harper's involvement—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

We could have had a whole committee on this.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

—publicly stating that he opposed a member of the Sikh community wearing the dastar in the RCMP. That's a conversation we should have. That's how hate toward the Sikh community is brought forward. I can tell you that members of the community were threatened for wearing turbans at that time. I can tell you that a member of the Conservative Party brought forward a petition which many Canadians signed, unfortunately. That's our history. Many Canadians signed and opposed a member wearing a turban in the RCMP.

I'm proud to say that the RCMP allowed the member to wear it. If you go to the RCMP Heritage Centre in Regina, you will have the opportunity to see that dastar showcased and the uniform of Mr. Baltej Singh Dhillon there.

Why did members of the Conservative Party not want that individual to wear the dastar?

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

On a point of order, Madam Chair, I just want it on the record that in 1990 it was a Conservative government that lifted the ban on turbans for the RCMP.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

Thank you, Mr. Lloyd. That's not a point of order.

Go ahead, Mr. Chahal.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I would ask Mr. Lloyd why Mr. Harper publicly stated that he was against that. I would ask other members to do the same. I would ask why Mr. Poilievre was a part of the Reform Party, which was actively engaging to target the individual from being a member of the RCMP. Why were members wearing pins that crossed out a member of the Sikh community who had a turban on? They were proudly wearing pins with a line through them.

We think about the importance of the turban for that member but also the history of Sikhs fighting for this nation, fighting in World War I and World War II wearing a turban, fighting on the front lines, putting their lives at risk for freedom, for freedom of the Commonwealth, for freedom for them to be able to practise their faith.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

On a point of order, Madam Chair, I just want to say that I'm very proud that my colleague Tim Uppal, a member from Edmonton, was the first turbaned Sikh to sit in a cabinet in Canada, and it was under Stephen Harper.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

Thank you, Mr. Lloyd.

I recognize that emotions are running a bit high.

Colleagues, this is a sensitive topic. Obviously it's been a number of weeks since our last constituency break. Let's please take a breath, and we will resume.

Go ahead, Ms. Damoff.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Chair, it's not a point of order. I have a question.

Until what time do we have resources?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

We are checking, but it sounds, from the response other committees are getting, like a hard stop at six.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

That was not a point of order; you're correct. It was a point of clarification, which is sometimes allowed.

Mr. Chahal, please resume your debate.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

As I speak with members of my community, particularly over the next number of days as we honour our veterans.... For me, as a member of the Sikh community, whose members have fought for freedom in northern India and in India to be able to practice their religion and have freedom of speech.... Many of them fought for the Commonwealth in World War I and World War II to have that ability and to proudly come to this nation and be Canadian citizens. They have had the opportunity to fight for this nation and also to serve, whether it's as members Parliament, as members of the police services across the country or as members of our armed forces, and proudly do so while wearing their turbans.

It's important to also acknowledge, when I think about the important conversation we had last night and reflect with many community members, that many of the concerns that are arising today with misinformation and disinformation.... That's why the Russian misinformation and disinformation study that's occurring in this committee, along with the study on electoral interference and criminal activity in Canada by the agents of the government of India.... An important part of what we have not studied yet and have not gotten into is exactly that. Who is pushing this information into the Canadian public to incite violence? Is it coming from domestic sources or is it coming from international sources?

I've been watching the news over the last number of days and I've been on social media. It's concerning for me when I see members of the Sikh community or the Hindu community having concerns about going to their place of worship. That is something we need to think about on this committee. It's about how they are getting information or how other members of the community are being sent to target community members and prevent them from being able to go to their place of worship.

I remember, as a child in Calgary, when the Sikh Society of Calgary, the first gurdwara, was built in 1978. I was three years old. Over the years afterward, that Sikh temple was targeted regularly.

Who was it targeted by at that time? There was targeting by members of our society who felt that people who looked a little different, like my parents and many of my relatives, were not welcome, unfortunately. The Sikh temple in southwest Calgary was targeted a number of times.

When I was a child, my dad would go there and sleep overnight with many others to protect our place of worship. In northeast Calgary, when the Dashmesh Culture Centre in my constituency was being built, it was also targeted on numerous occasions. What the Sikh communities tried to do over the years was help Canadians who live in our city understand who we are as Sikh Canadians and build interfaith bridges with other communities.

I have fond memories of collaboration that we've had with the Jewish community. I have fond memories of the collaboration that the Sikh community had with the Hindu community in Calgary. I get to represent, I would say, the most diverse riding in the country in Calgary Skyview. I'd like to challenge anybody who thinks otherwise.

The important collaboration, when we saw what happened—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

Mr. Chahal, I'm sorry. Could you just wrap up your last thought? Then we'll move on.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I still have lots of thoughts.

I want to talk about the collaboration with the Sikh and Muslim communities.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

I appreciate that. I just wanted to provide you a bit of a courtesy rather than cutting you off.

Unfortunately, we are way over time and out of resources, so at this point I will suspend, and we will resume this discussion on the Tuesday when we return from break.

The meeting is suspended.

[The meeting was suspended at 6:05 p.m., Thursday, November 7]

[The meeting resumed at 11:04 a.m., Tuesday, November 19]