Evidence of meeting #132 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was indian.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Shull, thank you for joining us today.
You said, among other things, that the safety of Canadians should be the government's priority.
I'm wondering about the Canadian government's response so far. The RCMP has come out publicly to reveal elements of the ongoing investigation, and diplomats have been expelled, as you mentioned. However, we must not forget that there is a fairly significant economic relationship between Canada and India. The witness before you said that there are more foreign interference activities by certain countries because they are taking up more and more space on the world stage, which seems to be the case for India.
Do you think the Canadian government's response might be a little weaker than we would like because of the economic relationship between India and Canada, which could be even greater than it is today? There seems to be significant economic potential.
Are you concerned that we are losing sight of the security of Canadians, which should be paramount, by instead prioritizing economic relations and trying to be nice to India to avoid offending its government?
How do you see this relationship, not only human, but also economic, that remains unresolved between India and Canada?
Managing Director and General Counsel, Centre for International Governance Innovation
I thank the member for her question.
For what it's worth, I'm doing Duolingo. I've been doing it for 81 days straight. The next time I appear in front of this committee,
I would like to be able to speak French one day. I'm working very hard to achieve that.
I think the answer is realpolitik. The answer, unfortunately, is that strong states are going to do what strong states are going to do. When they're able to push their way around, that is exactly what you can expect here. The question for me is, what can Canada do to counterbalance that? I think the answer inevitably will involve friends and allies. India is a much larger country. It's a much more populous country. This is what we're seeing now.
Expect more of these transactional types of diplomacy and bullying. China was doing it. India's doing it. I would expect that to continue. The operative question in my mind is this: What do we do to increase Canada's ability to deal with that?
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you.
We were talking earlier about the RCMP's duty to warn. When they become aware of criminal activities potentially placing a person's life in danger, they are somewhat obliged to warn them.
Representatives of the Sikh community who came to testify told us that this obligation was a good thing. At the same time, however, no action is being taken. There's no support. These people are not offered security.
I think I heard you say that more resources should be provided to the security agencies to help them deal with this. Adding resources may not necessarily be part of the solution—it's not the only thing that will solve the problem—but we should at least make sure that the people who are targeted feel safer.
Do you denounce what these people from the Sikh communities have also denounced?
What do you think of all that?
Managing Director and General Counsel, Centre for International Governance Innovation
Like the previous witnesses, I would be in favour of enhanced security measures where they're warranted. Where threats are severe, provide personal protective security measures such as police escorts, temporary relocation or surveillance systems. Not to be overly calculated about it, but for me it's a two-for-one. First, you get to save people's lives. You get to protect people when they are at their most vulnerable. For me, that is just the right thing to do as a matter of moral obligation, to say nothing of a legal one.
There's also a second benefit. By virtue of doing that and behaving that way, you're showing that you are a trusted institution that can be counted upon to do the right thing. Part of the solution to this goes to trusted, effective, deep and meaningful relationships in those communities. If people feel like they're on their own at the worst possible moment, when they're the most vulnerable, that doesn't inspire a whole lot of trust. If you're able to show that during severe times of strain, stress and danger you're able to provide personal protection and security measures, then I think that will help you in those communities as well.
For me, then, there are actually two benefits.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Welcome back to our committee, Mr. Shull. Thanks for being here and helping us with this particular study.
As you said in your opening statement, we know that India does see a lot of these separatist movements around the world as a direct threat to its national security. That's its perception. We know, in its internal politics, that a lot of minority religious groups are not having an easy time, for lack of a better term, under the current Modi government.
I'm just looking at India's overall strategic objectives. Using this heavy-handed approach of partnering with organized crime, using blackmail, death threats, coercion and of course outright murder, do you think India has overstepped itself now? Is the bad press it's getting now internationally...? This made the news worldwide. I mean, the Prime Minister stood in the House of Commons last year in September and used ministerial statements to name India. Of course, we've had a whole series of reports come out since then. Has India ruined its strategic objectives by now being suddenly put in the limelight?
Managing Director and General Counsel, Centre for International Governance Innovation
It depends on what their strategic objectives are. I'll back up a step and say that this has harmed their reputation among real democratic nations for sure, but I think what it is.... Inevitably, you see this time and time again: states putting their short-term interests in front of long-term geostrategic stability. They are playing checkers when they should be playing chess.
Here's what I mean by that. They're now seen as a bit of a pariah. You can say the words “Russia, China, India and North Korea” in the same sentence, and that kind of fits. If that's your club, if that's who you're hanging out with, what does that say about you?
Not to turn this into a political science lesson here, but for me, democracy is actually two things.
It's a process: You get to vote, and the votes get tallied, and whoever gets the most votes in some fashion wins. It's a process.
It's also an outcome: a pluralistic society built on the rule of law. I think that's the erosion we're seeing here.
Yes, if you can be lumped in with the North Koreas of the world in the same sentence, your brand is not doing well, but the fact that they are travelling as a herd now also should give us pause in the western world. This is the geostrategic reality that we're part of now.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
On that subject, of course, every country has its national interest, and our allies are no exception. I know that in recent years stronger relations with India were seen as a way to counteract China's growing influence in the Asia-Pacific region.
Now, we had testimony from one of the deputy ministers from foreign affairs. They're quite satisfied that our allies are standing with us on these very serious allegations, but of course our allies have their own strategic objectives as well. How do you see this playing out in the coming years? I know that many of our allies also have a deep desire to forge stronger relationships with India. There's great economic potential there and so on.
Managing Director and General Counsel, Centre for International Governance Innovation
Yes, well, there's that old saying: Countries don't have friends, they have interests. A part of it is that there's a political culture in Canada.... We haven't really paid attention, because we haven't really had to. We've had the United States, so we're safe. We've had access to the U.S. market, so we're rich. It just hasn't really required us to think about the world that way, but the fact is, that's the way it is.
Believe me, when the new U.S. administration gets in there, buckle up for that as well. Countries have interests. The question is, how does Canada leverage its position, its strategic position, to maximize its interests vis-à-vis what we see going on in the world? That's the way I would start to position this conversation. Maybe I won't get into the strategy that I'd pursue right here, but the next time we have a chat, I can maybe think a little about the way I would do it, based on the way I'm seeing the world.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
You had some suggestions. You talked about how we need to greatly expand the counter-intelligence capabilities of the RCMP and CSIS and really maximize the new tools that we have, such as Bill C-70.
Just turning to the political realm, we know that India and other countries have a desire to influence our politics. Outside of the things I just mentioned, what do you think political parties should be doing? Are there any recommendations that you want our committee to focus on?
Managing Director and General Counsel, Centre for International Governance Innovation
Yes, I think this idea of having every member of Parliament briefed for real when there's a new session—a deep and meaningful brief—would be helpful.
There is another thing to think about. I've mentioned this in another committee. There's precedent for it. There used to be a per vote subsidy for parties. I think we should bring back a subsidy, so that each party can hire a national security adviser: someone who's cleared, who's within the party and who looks at it from a political lens but has the necessary clearances.
There's a book called Political Tribes by Amy Chua. It's just a matter of human psychology that people are more likely to believe or listen to folks who come from their own party: someone who understands the political lay of the land. Having a dedicated asset and resource in the party would be another thing to think about.
Briefings across the board, a dedicated asset and then, for what it's worth, encourage your staff to come to the lunch-and-learn session that I host once in a while to be educated on national security matters. As I've joked, come for the turkey sandwich and stay for a lecture about what CSIS does.
Liberal
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I wish to move the following motion:
Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), given that Canadians continue to be affected by the geopolitical impacts of the October 7, 2023 attack by Hamas on Israel, and given that recent court filings have revealed disturbing details about a thwarted ISIS-linked bomb plot targeting Jewish Canadians on Parliament Hill, and given that an antisemitic riot occurred in Montreal on November 22, 2024, the committee immediately prioritize a study to run concurrently with the study on border security agreed to on Thursday, November 21, 2024, to investigate the dramatic rise in terrorist plots and acts of violence targeting Canada's Jewish community, including the thwarted terror attack on Parliament Hill; that the study be comprised of no fewer than eight meetings; and that the committee invite
1. the Minister of Public Safety and the Minister of Immigration on the matter of the motion passed on Thursday, September 19, 2024;
2. the special adviser to the Prime Minister on Jewish community relations and antisemitism;
3. the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, or RCMP, commissioner;
4. Brigitte Gauvin, the RCMP deputy commissioner for national security;
5. representatives of the RCMP's federal policing integrated national security enforcement team;
6. Robert Burley, executive director of the Canada Centre for Community Engagement and Prevention of Violence;
7. the director of Canadian Security and Intelligence Service and other law enforcement officials;
8. the director of the Parliamentary Protective Service;
9. recognized experts in national security;
10. representatives from TikTok, X, Snapchat, Discord, Reddit, Facebook, Telegram, Minecraft and Roblox;
11. civil society and academic organizations, including the Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs and B'nai Brith,
to discuss the foiled terrorist plot, the rise of violent antisemitism and recent measures the federal government has undertaken to address it, and the role that social media and gaming platforms play in radicalizing youth and mobilizing violence; that the committee report its findings and recommendations to the House; and, pursuant to Standing Order 109, that the government table a comprehensive response to the report.
Mr. Chair, as you know, Conservatives have made multiple attempts to bring forward a motion. We want to bring forward this one in this format. It considers what Ms. Damoff put forward and includes a number of witnesses we know are important to Liberal members. It seems there is an interest among all parties to study this, although I want to make the point that anti-Semitism has to be the focus of this study. If we look at what the Jewish community has faced over the past 13 months, I'm sure the committee would agree.
Certainly, there was a 109% increase in anti-Semitic incidents in 2023 compared with the previous year. In the most recent data available, there were nearly 6,000 documented acts of violence, harassment and vandalism aimed at Jews in Canada in 2023. In 2024, 66% of hate crimes with religion as a motivation were targeted at Jewish Canadians. Again, Jewish Canadians make up only 1% of all of Canada's population. It's incredibly significant.
There were 16 anti-Semitic incidents occurring every single day for the data available in 2023. As we know, in November 2023, two Jewish institutions in Montreal were firebombed exactly one month after the October 7 attacks in Israel. Also in November 2023, two Jewish schools were shot up with gunfire. Notably, these were an elementary and a kindergarten school. Then, twice in 2024, a Jewish girls' school in North York was subjected to gunfire. In May 2024, there was an arson attack on a synagogue. We know that synagogues have, by and large, across the country, experienced an increase in vandalism. In August 2024, across Canada, 100 Jewish institutions received bomb threats.
We know at this committee, certainly, that there have been multiple thwarted terrorist plots to massacre Jewish people, notably on Parliament Hill. We recently found out that, in December 2023, two teens were plotting to bomb Parliament Hill. Again, it's the heart of our democracy. There were a number of people from the Jewish community there, and a number of members of Parliament from all parties.
We also heard at this committee about the individual with a student visa who was en route to Brooklyn, New York earlier this fall to commit a massacre against Jewish people. We also heard reports and concerns about the father-son duo planning to make an attack in Toronto this past summer. They may have been targeting the Jewish community. There were multiple thwarted terrorist attacks on the Jewish community. Of course, we have all seen the protests targeting Jewish businesses and elderly care homes. Most recently, there were riots in Montreal at which someone called for the final solution for the Jewish people.
I want to conclude my remarks, Mr. Chair, with this: We are considering a lot of important matters at this committee. There are a lot of competing interests, but I think it's very evident that the Jewish community has faced something in the past 13 months that few of us can understand unless we're Jewish.
The trauma from October 7 is felt continuously, particularly by women in the Jewish community in Canada. Ultimately, I do feel that the Jewish community feels that they've been abandoned both by their government and by others. I think it's an important signal for the committee of public safety and national security to send to the Jewish community that we have their backs, that we're going to take this seriously and that we're going to study this and really send a signal that we care about this and are taking it seriously as a committee.
I'll just conclude by saying that I believe we have four more meetings on India. I know we're starting Ms. Michaud's study as well, so, as I mentioned, I would ask, Mr. Chair, that we concurrently look at that with this study and that we at least have one meeting on this before the holidays. I think that would send the right signal to the Jewish community and those who wish to harm them.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Iqwinder Gaheer
Thank you, Ms. Dancho.
I think if the committee is okay with it, we can let Mr. Shull go.
Mr. Shull, thank you so much for your testimony today.
Managing Director and General Counsel, Centre for International Governance Innovation
Thank you, everybody. It was nice to see you.
November 28th, 2024 / 5:55 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to Ms. Dancho for bringing this forward today.
I also want to thank the Conservatives for including some of the witnesses we proposed.
Mr. Lloyd, I sent you some information on the social media and gaming platform, so I appreciate that you reviewed them and it's included in this motion.
I do have an amendment—not a lot—to make to this motion that Ms. Dancho has just brought forward. I will make a comment that I understand the justice committee did a study on anti-Semitism, which has not been tabled yet. It would be helpful for us, I think, to have access to that report before we start our own study at public safety. I'll read right now the changes I have:
Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), given that Canadians continue to be affected by the geopolitical impacts of the October 7, 2023 attack by Hamas on Israel, and given that recent court filings have revealed disturbing details about a thwarted ISIS-linked bomb plot targeting Jewish Canadians on Parliament Hill, and given that an antisemitic riot occurred in Montreal on November 22, 2024, the committee immediately study the growing trend of violent extremism, in particular, the increase in youth involvement, the rise in foiled terrorist plots and acts of violence targeting Canada's Jewish community, including the thwarted terror attack on Parliament Hill; that the study be comprised of no fewer than four meetings; and that the committee invite—
I'm not going to read all of the witnesses again, but I would point out that we have changed witness number two. We've deleted what is there and inserted “Canada’s special envoy on preserving Holocaust remembrance and combatting antisemitism”.
The rest of the witnesses remain the same. Then, in the last paragraph, it's “to discuss the foiled terrorist plot, the rise of violent extremism, including antisemitism, and....”
The rest of the motion stays the same, Mr. Chair. I believe it's been sent electronically, and I would put that amendment forward.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Thank you. I'm just trying to write this down. I believe, if I'm correct, that it's removed the priority, the part where it says that “the committee immediately prioritize a study”. Then it cuts it down from eight meetings to four and expands it beyond only violent anti-Semitism to violent extremism, with a focus or emphasis, perhaps, on anti-Semitism. However, it's been expanded beyond that.
If Ms. Damoff can just confirm that my three points are correct, I would then just like to respond.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Iqwinder Gaheer
We'll just wait for clerk to distribute the amended motion.
Ms. Dancho.
