Public Safety Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2024

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Leblanc, thank you for being here. It's always a pleasure to see you at the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

November 7, the day after Mr. Trump was elected, I had the opportunity to speak with you at the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. Mr. Trump had said he was planning to deport millions of migrants, migrants who could very well try to come to Canada. That worried me, so I asked you about the security of our borders. You told me then that everything was fine, that you had a plan, that you didn't need to make any special provisions and that you would handle any crisis that arose as appropriate. That's more or less what you said.

Last week, you said that, given Mr. Trump's threat to impose 25% tariffs, you planned to invest more resources in the border, deploy more personnel, equipment, drones and helicopters. Basically, it turns out that things weren't as fine as you'd initially thought and that you may not have been ready enough. That's how I see it.

I also gather that you want more people posted along the border because, according to a recent Radio-Canada article, there could be just six officers per shift covering a stretch of the Canada-U.S. border a little more than 160 kilometres long. That's very good. I understand that the RCMP is responsible for covering the area in between ports of entry.

However, as I was discussing with the commissioner earlier, when you decide to redeploy officers, in other words, put more RCMP officers along the border, it obviously affects other departments, other efforts to respond to other public safety issues. The president of the Customs and Immigration Union, Mark Weber, said his officers, or union members, had the expertise to patrol in between ports of entry and want to be able to do so.

Nothing in the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act or the Customs Act prevents the CBSA from doing that. It's actually an order in council that is preventing the agency from taking on that role. Apparently the order in council is from 1932. That's what Mr. Weber said in the letter he sent you yesterday.

From your remarks a bit earlier, it doesn't seem to be a priority of yours to expand the CBSA's role so that border officers are empowered to patrol in between ports of entry and help out RCMP officers.

In the current context, border security seems to be a priority, so why not let CBSA officers, who have the expertise, patrol in between ports of entry?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Ms. Michaud, thank you for your 25 questions.

I remember telling you the day after the American election that I wasn't worried about a possible upsurge of migrants from the south to the north, because the RCMP and Canada Border Services Agency were ready. I haven't changed my mind on this issue.

That said, you're right about the comments made by Mr. Trump a week ago. At that time, the challenge was the fight against fentanyl. We discussed this at Mar‑a‑Lago on Friday evening.

The Americans are worried about the number of people trying to enter the United States from Canada. We must assure them and Canadians that we can bring the numbers down and remain a first‑rate partner in the fight against fentanyl, as I said. I think that this is still the case.

You raised another good point regarding the mandate of border services officers in comparison with the mandate of RCMP officers.

I completely agree with you. Should an emergency or operational circumstance require the reassignment of police officers by Commissioner Michael Duheme and his commanding officer in Quebec, for example, it could take precedence over other investigations. This wouldn't be ideal and it would be a challenge.

However, we've been dealing with this type of challenge for decades by managing threats. As a result, we'll be increasing the number of recruits in the depot division of the RCMP academy in Regina. The commissioner has already made considerable progress on this front and the trends in this area are encouraging. However, recruitment doesn't happen overnight.

I'm intrigued by the idea of looking at the Canada Border Services Agency's mandate. I had informal discussions on this topic with the president of the Canada Border Services Agency and the commissioner a number of months ago, well before the American election.

That said, it remains to be seen whether this approach would work. I visited the border services college in Rigaud. It's a great place to train. However, we can't recruit hundreds of border services officers overnight, although 500 join the ranks every year.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I gather that the Canada Border Services Agency is short of officers.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

That's not what I said. You said that.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Would this explain the reduced opening hours at some border crossings? Is there a plan to reassign officers to busier crossings? Is this why the Canada Border Services Agency is short of human resources and why you're turning to the RCMP to secure the border?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

The RCMP plays a key role in securing the border in partnership with the Canada Border Services Agency. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

I don't agree with your statement that we're short of border services officers.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

It was a question.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I was also a member of the opposition. I understand your approach to asking questions and you're quite good at it.

However, you're right about the opening hours at some border crossings. I understand that the agency's president answered this question while I was at a cabinet meeting. I also answered a question on this topic from one of your colleagues in the House of Commons. The opening hours have been aligned with the hours at our American partners' border crossings.

This topic has been the focus of discussions for months, if not years. The idea is to increase security. For example, if the Americans unilaterally close their side of the border for certain hours and an individual crosses the border, the safe third country agreement states that the individual could be apprehended and sent back to the United States. However, if no one is at the border crossing on the other side of the border, should the individual be taken to a Quebec provincial police station in a small town in Quebec?

Standardized opening hours are one way to increase security. The Canada Border Services Agency has been having these types of discussions with its American partner for a long time. I've been assured that this doesn't affect border security in any way.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

Thank you.

Next is Mr. MacGregor for six minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to the committee, Minister. It's good to see you back here.

It's been nine years since those devastating Conservative cuts to the CBSA, which made our border less safe. To hear the Conservatives at the committee today asking for more resources when they significantly contributed to the deficit that the CBSA is operating with is really quite incredible.

However, I'm not going to let you off the hook either, because—

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Keep going. It sounds good.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

—when Ms. O'Connell asked you a question, you painted a pretty rosy picture.

I'm going to read you a quote from Mark Weber on October 17. He appeared at a press conference with NDP leader Jagmeet Singh. He said:

I’ll be honest, the reality at CBSA is bleak: Staffing wise, past Conservative cuts have left ports of entry severely understaffed. We would need almost 3000 additional officers from coast to coast to coast to meet operational requirements. Current training facilities can only train up to 600 officers a year, which does not even cover attrition.

Nine years ago, we had devastating Conservative cuts. You've just tried to paint a rosy picture.

Mark Weber's quote seems to be quite the opposite of what you just told this committee. Can you explain the difference?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Sure, Mr. MacGregor. Thank you for the question. I particularly liked the first part of your question. I thought that was excellent.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I'm sure you did.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Maybe I didn't paint a rosy picture. Maybe it was a less sombre picture, because we have, as I noted, increased the resources for the CBSA.

However, I recognize, Mr. MacGregor, that we need to do more and that the responsibility they have is enormous. The kinds of threats we see at the border include human trafficking, gun smuggling and drugs. In the criminal intelligence work they do, there are 200 criminal investigators who work at the CBSA. These people are doing extraordinary work, but I totally share the view you expressed and the view of the union president, who has said publicly that we can continue to increase the human resource posture.

That's exactly what I hope I will be talking about publicly in the next few weeks, recognizing that we can continue to do more. I think we have been supportive. I hope we've been supportive of their good work, but we haven't finished, and I hope we can look forward to your support on exactly that, as we will do more.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Minister.

I want to zero in on your recent meeting with the president-elect at Mar-a-Lago. I think a lot of what's been happening in Canada has been reactive to the president-elect's comments. What are we going to do?

However, you need to remember, as the Minister of Public Safety, that your first and foremost priority is Canadians on this side of the border. We have very real concerns on our side of the border about what is flowing into our country. There's a consequence in Canada to living beside the largest small arms manufacturer in the world.

Minister, how did you use that opportunity to present Canada's concerns, particularly with regard to the flow of illegal firearms that are finding their way into many of Canada's major cities?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

That is exactly—almost in those words—something we addressed with President Trump and his future cabinet secretaries on Friday evening at Mar-a-Lago.

The Prime Minister said, when he was talking about their concerns around, for example, fentanyl, precursor chemicals and drugs, that we have for a long time worried about illegal firearms being smuggled into Canada. The RCMP and the CBSA have talked to me about that.

We need to work with American partners. We made the point to him that it's something we want to do in partnership with them. The FBI and the U.S. Customs and Border Protection have a role to play. The CBSA, as I noted, has done some good work in that area, but again, we need to continue to lean in on that, because that particular issue is having devastating consequences for law enforcement officers and citizens in cities big and small across the country.

The conversation was very much that this is a bilateral and binational challenge. We talked about cocaine and methamphetamine that come into Canada from the United States. We wanted to impress upon the Americans that not only do we share their concerns, but we have our own as well.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I appreciate that.

I want to change the channel now to the adoption of Bill C-20.

It received royal assent on October 31. That legislation authorizes the establishment of a public complaints and review commission.

As you know, Minister, many Black, racialized and indigenous Canadians have had negative interactions with our police services. There have been negative interactions at the border. The call for such a commission has been a long time coming, let's just say. There's been a lot of interest in the establishment of this commission. It will give a lot of certainty when it starts being operationalized.

The coming into force is reliant on a Governor in Council announcement. I'd like you to inform this committee, Minister, of what steps you have taken as minister to operationalize its establishment.

I'd just like to be clear on what the timelines are, what the future budget projections are and when Canadians can expect this commission to be operationalized.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. MacGregor, thank you for a very good question.

I was very happy when that legislation was adopted. You're right that it was a long time in the making. I was also encouraged by the support of the RCMP and the CBSA for that legislation to be adopted and to operationalize it quickly.

I sensed zero hesitancy from the leadership of the CBSA or the RCMP in recognizing that it was an important improvement for the reasons you stated, in terms of building public confidence in the good work that these agencies do and reassuring the groups of people that you—

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

When will the Governor in Council do the job?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I have seen potential appointments. We do need to appoint people sensitive to the diversity that you identified, with the objective of providing that reassurance. The appointments we make, I hope, will be in some part an answer to that. I hope to go to cabinet soon with those names. I expect to bring that into effect very quickly.

We're not delaying. There's no reason to delay, other than finalizing the names and taking them before cabinet.

If the deputy has a more technical answer, perhaps she could provide that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

Please answer very quickly.

[Tricia Geddes]

We are working on those really quickly. We understand the urgency here. It has been a long time coming. We're really keen to get these moved forward. As you pointed out, the operational agencies are equally excited to see this work done.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Parliament did its job.