Public Safety Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

Thank you.

That concludes the first round. We'll move on to the second round with Ms. Dancho for five minutes.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, the priority, it seems, in addressing the 25% tariff threat from President-elect Trump is addressing what's happening in between the ports of entry right now.

You're nodding, so would you would agree? You nodded when I said that.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Of course that's a priority, but it's also a priority at the ports of entry. I see these as equal priorities. We take the operational advice of the RCMP and CSIS in terms of the location of the particular threat.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

It is a priority, though, between the ports of entry. We're not getting clear commitments from you for the redeployment of RCMP resources or increased boots on the ground.

In fact, when Ms. Michaud said that we don't have enough CBSA agents, you said that you didn't agree with her. In that regard, is your opinion that we do, in fact, have enough CBSA agents? From that I can infer, there won't be an increase in CBSA agents' boots on the ground.

As you know, our leader, Pierre Poilievre, has committed to working with provincial law enforcement to re-deputize some of those individuals to secure the border in between the ports of entry and to expand the CBSA mandate to work between the ports as well.

We are committed to increasing those boots on the ground, but I'm not hearing that commitment from you, in particular in your response to Ms. Michaud. There is no commitment to increase boots on the ground at this time. It's certainly not before January 20, from what you've said.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Again, because you repeat it four or five times, Ms. Dancho, doesn't make it true. I also said to Madame Michaud that we were absolutely committed to increasing CBSA and RCMP personnel. We have taken considerable steps in that regard to reverse the cuts that your previous Conservative government made, but we also recognize we can do more. We'll do more as quickly as we can.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Minister.

I'm glad you brought up the issue of the cuts, because I was reviewing all the annual reports, back to the Martin years, if you would believe it. It would seem, just based on the annual report data itself, that during the 10 Harper years, there was an increase of 1,700 positions at the CBSA during his 10-year mandate and half a billion dollars of increased investments to the CBSA at that point. In fact, based on the annual report data, in the last year, we ensured there were 336 additional frontline workers.

We were looking at that same time, as you know, to balance the books. Harper eliminated the deficit at that time. We had a 26% decrease in violent crime, in contrast with your government's record, Minister, of a 50% increase in violent crime. We now have the largest debt accumulation in history. Actually, all governments combined before you don't match the debt that your government has accrued.

It is interesting that in the first two years of your government's mandate, at the CBSA you cut 237 frontline positions of border boots on the ground, and another 450 in 2020-21. In fact, you reduced, in 2017, the jobs at CBSA back to 2008 levels. It is interesting, given the balancing of the budget and the reduction of crime under the Harper government, that we're seeing quite the opposite from your record. I will certainly defend the Harper record seven days a week in that regard.

I do appreciate that you feel confident that you're bringing forward a plan. We haven't heard any commitment on the numbers. You were invited to Mar-a-Lago because you were doing a good job on the border. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Am I correct?

We are having serious issues at the border. We're not getting a sense from you that you're assuring that there will be redeployment of the RCMP immediately to secure the border, that you're increasing agents on the ground at the CBSA or that you're working with CBSA to expand its mandate. Again, it's not clear what your plan is.

You talked about technology. Fair enough; we agree in that regard. However, you have provided no concrete commitments. Really, for the Americans, they are not seeing anything before January 20 at this point. I find that concerning, given that we're staring down the barrel of a 25% tariff and economic recession by January 20.

I may be obsessed by talking about numbers and boots on the ground, but you have made no commitment on that. That is the issue the Americans are threatening us with.

I'll just ask you again: Is there an increase of boots on the ground for the RCMP and the CBSA in between ports of entry, yes or no?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Ms. Dancho, what is equally unclear is the infomercial you just did for social media.

You talked about Mr. Harper eliminating his own deficit, having inherited a massive surplus from Ralph Goodale. You talked about increasing the CBSA staff numbers, which is a good thing. The CBSA was born in 2003, post-9/11, so it wasn't surprising that after Mr. Harper became prime minister, the CBSA, in 2006, 2007 and 2008, began ramping up the good work it has been doing. Therefore, we certainly are glad that Mr. Harper did that in those early years. It's too bad that at the end of his government, he decided to cut it.

Again, Ms. Dancho, you keep repeating that. I hope you get a good clip, but I have said it publicly and I said it at Mar-a-Lago, and the Prime Minister repeated it: Of course we will be increasing the “boots on the ground”, to use your phrase, of the CBSA and the RCMP.

I want to be careful. You said that the RCMP has not redeployed resources or has not assigned new people. I have a lot of confidence in the decision that the commissioner of the RCMP or that the president of the CBSA will make on reassigning the appropriate police or law enforcement presence, based on the threat that exists. I've been assured by the commissioner and by the president that they absolutely are operationally ready to meet a potential threat. The good news is that we're going to work with them to ensure that they have even more human resources.

There's the specific answer to your question. The answer was yes, we are going to increase the human resources, but we're also going to use technologies, which can be very effective as well.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you very much.

Just in my remaining seconds, I have full confidence—

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

Thank you, Ms. Dancho. There's—

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I have 15 seconds left.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

No, we're actually actually over by 45 seconds.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Yes, I do.

I have a point of order. When the mic went live, I had 15 seconds remaining, so if you'll just allow me—

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

We're over. We're over by a minute.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

—and then the minister can finish. It's six minutes.

No, it's five minutes. You're right. I apologize.

Thank you to the commissioner and to the president. I do have full faith in you.

It's your leadership, Minister, that I'm concerned about.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

Thank you.

Ms. Damoff, you have five minutes.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you so much.

Do I get five minutes and 45 seconds, too, Chair?

Minister, thank you for that last response.

I keep hearing things from my Conservative colleagues, and I would say that just because President-elect Trump says something doesn't necessarily make it true. That's why, in my opinion, your trip down there to make sure that the incoming administration knows the facts about the border was really important.

We've had conversations about the border during my whole time as an MP. I am personally really proud of the investments that we've made. All I heard about when we first came into office was the cuts that were made under DRAP, the deficit reduction action plan, across the board in government, but particularly in public safety, where you would think that the previous government would have made it a priority because they talk about public safety all the time, Minister.

We haven't talked about auto theft. The previous Harper government removed the scanner that was in Brampton to scan the containers at the intermodal terminal there, but our government convened a national summit on auto theft. At the time, when I asked Peel Regional Police Chief Nish what we could do, he said to do exactly this.

I wonder if you could talk a bit about the investments we've made to deal with auto theft and about the progress we're making on a really complicated issue.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Ms. Damoff, I thank you for that question, and I totally share your concern and the concerns of colleagues who have talked to me about the rising levels of auto theft over the last couple of years.

You're right that we convened a summit in Ottawa with law enforcement leaders from across the country and provincial and territorial ministers of public safety. I'm very happy that our colleagues from the larger provinces, Quebec and Ontario, where this is an issue, participated.

As I said in my opening remarks, the CBSA—obviously with partner police organizations—has done a lot of good work, based on the intelligence that they receive, and 2,000 stolen vehicles have already been retrieved this year. The national trends may show a decrease, we hope, of up to 17% in the first six months of 2024.

Nationally, in Quebec, for example, there's been a 36% decline in stolen vehicles. A decline from a high level is better than a continued increase, but it's certainly not where we want to get to, so I recognize that our work is not done in that regard, Ms. Damoff. We've made changes to the Criminal Code to provide additional tools for law enforcement and prosecutors to address auto theft. We've enhanced intelligence sharing and information sharing among municipal, provincial and federal law enforcement agencies.

The commissioner was recently at an Interpol meeting in Europe and has spoken to me about the very good work that the RCMP has done in terms of sharing information with Interpol and the number of foreign police checks at Interpol. He could, I'm sure, provide details for you in that regard.

On scanning technologies, I had an opportunity at an intermodal rail yard with some colleagues from Brampton to see a backscatter scanner.

Don't laugh, Commissioner. I think that's what it's called.

It's an RCMP scanner, and the RCMP lent it to the CBSA. There was an RCMP officer running the computer in it. This scanner can drive beside steel containers in an intermodal yard and look at two containers high. If they're marked tomato paste, but you see hubcaps and wheels like truck and car wheels, it doesn't look like tomato paste on the screen in the backscatter scanner.

There's a whole bunch of interesting technologies that will help intercept the stolen vehicles before they get to the port of Montreal. That's much more efficient and much less expensive, and it's much more reassuring for the person to get their vehicle back there, rather than finding it buried nine containers deep in one of the busiest ports in the country.

The president of the CBSA has some information on precise technologies that I'm sure will interest all of you.

[Erin O'Gorman]

I just want to say that we're testing those technologies at the rail yards and also looking at what we can do with intelligence. We're acting on every piece of intelligence we receive from police of jurisdiction and we're passing them back any piece of intelligence we can. All three of them are yielding some of the results that we're seeing now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

That's great. Thank you.

Madame Michaud, go ahead for two minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I raised this issue before you arrived. As you know, this Friday marks the sombre 35th anniversary of the Polytechnique massacre. You, your government and your predecessors promised victims and their families, including victims of acts committed with all other types of firearms, a ban on military‑style assault weapons. That said, this ban isn't complete. In 2020, I believe, Bill Blair put in place an order in council that banned 1,500 weapons. Then came Bill C‑21. However, the definition of “prohibited weapon” is ever‑changing and applies only to weapons designed after the passage of the bill. As a result, a few hundred models remain in circulation.

In terms of the buyback program promised for this fall, or at least its first phase, people are worried that individuals may resell their prohibited weapon to the government and use that money to buy a similar model still in circulation. This would render the gun control measure ineffective and, above all, a waste of taxpayer money.

Like a number of people, I expect you to unveil the first phase of the buyback program soon. Can we expect a complete ban on military‑style assault weapons before this buyback program takes effect?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Thank you for your question, Ms. Michaud.

I completely share the concerns that you just described. Along with my colleague, Jean‑Yves Duclos, and others, I've been fortunate enough to meet with Nathalie Provost and Heidi Rathjen from PolySeSouvient on a number of occasions. I'm keenly aware of the sombre occasion that will be marked this Friday.

You're also right to say that we're committed to banning these weapons. The original order in council put in place by Mr. Blair banned over 1,500 types of weapons. I don't want to correct you. I just want to make sure that people understand what the first phase of the firearms buyback program entails. It involves collecting these prohibited military‑style assault rifles from gun stores, such as Cabela's, that have them in stock. This process has already started. The RCMP has run pilot projects and tests. The government has already collected some of these rifles from retailers that had them in stock. The rifles have been destroyed. I've seen the photo of the first rifle destroyed after the first phase.

However, you're right. During the second phase, we'll be collecting these rifles from individuals. The Quebec provincial police will provide a great deal of support. We'll also be compensating these people, since we acknowledge that we're outlawing items that used to be legal. At that point, to avoid any loopholes, the next order in council rounding out the list of prohibited rifles will need to have been announced. When people receive a cheque, they won't have the option of returning to Cabela's to buy the modern version of the rifle that we just outlawed. We'll close that loophole before people receive the money.

Over the coming days, I'll have some comments to make about the next steps. We talked about a committee of experts or technical advisers who will work with the RCMP. This other process is already under way. This committee is in place and has already held meetings. I believe that it met last week.

I'm aware of the time frames that you referred to. I'm sure that we'll stick to them. I'll be providing more details in the coming days. I'm happy to keep you informed, since you have been supportive of our joint efforts. You, Mr. MacGregor and his predecessor, Mr. Julian, have played a key role.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

Thank you.

Mr. MacGregor, you have two and a half minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I had a very productive meeting with members of the Union of Canadian Correctional Officers in October, and previously, a couple of years ago, I had the opportunity to visit both the Mountain medium security facility and the Kent maximum security facility in British Columbia, so I've not only had an on-the-ground tour with members of USJE but I've also had these productive meetings with the union representing correctional officers.

I know from those tours that even little things, such as an increased quality of food, can have a dramatic effect on how the inmate population behaves, but I did hear a lot from both unions that there are some significant safety concerns. I know from the virtual reality experience that the UCCO put on that it is a unique working environment. For both inmates and the members of the public service who service those institutions, we want to make sure they have a safe working environment.

I did ask Ms. Kelly about this, but I want to stay focused just on you. Staff have some very real concerns about a safe working environment. They also have very real concerns about how their salary grid is being matched to other members, such as the RCMP.

What I'd like to know from you, Minister, is this: How are you personally advocating for the members of the USJE and UCCO in making sure that their demands are met, given the unique challenges of their workspace?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. MacGregor, thank you for a thoughtful question.

I am happy to subscribe entirely to the comments you made in your preamble and as you posed the question in terms of the good work that members of both of these unions do in dangerous and difficult circumstances. I too saw the virtual reality presentation.

I have had the privilege of visiting these correctional institutions, not in your province yet—I hope to go in the coming weeks—but in many other parts of the country. In my constituency, I have the Dorchester Penitentiary, which opened in the 1880s, I think. Lawrence MacAulay was a backbench MP when that facility opened.