Evidence of meeting #133 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbsa.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Tricia Geddes  Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Michael Duheme  Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Erin O'Gorman  President, Canada Border Services Agency
Daniel Rogers  Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Jérome Laliberté  Chief Financial Officer and Deputy Director of Administration, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Anne Kelly  Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
Dominic LeBlanc  Minister of Public Safety, Democratic Institutions and Intergovernmental Affairs

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

On the first one, there haven't been any meetings to discuss redeployment. I had an opportunity yesterday to discuss potential options in this regard with the president of the CBSA, the commissioner of the RCMP and our deputy minister. Those meetings have been ongoing as recently as this time yesterday.

I don't want to correct you. You said that I said we're not interested in expanding the CBSA mandate. I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. What I said is that we're interested in taking immediate steps to reassure Canadians and Americans that the border remains secure and that the integrity of the border is protected.

However, we're always interested. We've taken notes of the union president's comments. The commissioner and I have talked about this issue in the past. We haven't made any decisions in that regard, but we are open to considering that as well.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you.

What is the immediate step on the redeployment numbers?

You can't tell me the numbers of how many you're going to redeploy. The commissioner is also not aware of any plan in that regard, and the CBSA president has not heard any asks from you to increase the boots on the ground. It doesn't seem that there is immediate action forthcoming on this.

Again, it's 48 days away. We're staring down the barrel of a 25% tariff and an economic recession, and there isn't a concrete plan that I'm hearing from you about actual boots on the ground to address the concerns of the Americans. There is no number right now for redeployment between ports of entry from the RCMP or the CBSA.

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Again, Ms. Dancho, I don't imagine you'd want to put words in the mouth of the commissioner or the president of the CBSA.

I asked them about that, probably a month and a half or two months ago, and a number of times since the election of President-elect Trump. As you noted, the initial concern was about a potential south-to-north flow of people arriving at the border. That was the conversation that captivated Canadians a few weeks ago. You've seen, in light of the president-elect's comments a week ago, that this has changed to issues around fentanyl as well.

I received advice from the commissioner of the RCMP and the president of the CBSA in terms of additional resources, including personnel we could recruit, hire and redeploy, as well as equipment.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you, Minister.

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

As I said, I am working with the Minister of Finance and will be happy to tell Canadians about this important work when it's finalized.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

This is a concern we've heard about for 20 days now from President-elect Trump. The borders are going to be a problem. However, there is no commitment that you've made today—or in the past week, certainly, since your trip to Mar-a-Lago—regarding additional resources.

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

I just made that commitment.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

How many is it, though?

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Again, I told you that I....

We're repeating ourselves. It's a circular argument.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

How many...?

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

I said that when we have finalized....

There will be additional resources in human resources and equipment. We've said that consistently.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

By January 20....

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

We will be making announcements in terms of procurement and personnel before that date. We are finalizing that now, as a government, based on the good advice we receive from the RCMP and from the Canada Border Services Agency.

I understand it's exciting, and Canadians want to understand it—

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Minister, respectfully—

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

—and the good news is that it's coming.

The Chair Liberal Iqwinder Gaheer

Thank you, Ms. Dancho. Your time is up.

Thank you, Minister.

Ms. O'Connell, you have six minutes.

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister and officials, for being here.

That last series of questions would suggest that there have been zero investments made or protections done for our borders and that we are only looking at securing our borders in 48 days.

I find that to be ridiculous, especially given that even in the supplementary estimates that we're looking at here, which would have been worked on previous to any American election, there are in fact investments going into our border.

Minister, my question to you is twofold.

One, the commissioner, in our previous panel, mentioned surge capacity and that there isn't the intelligence yet to suggest that a surge is needed. However, in the event that this changes, they are ready, so that's part of addressing this.

Two, we also have border security measures that we want to work with the Americans on, in particular when it comes to guns entering the border. When it's dealing with President-elect Trump's concerns around securing borders, it is the southern border, where there were over 2.1 million entries. What are we doing not only to secure our borders on both sides, but also to increase resources?

The fact is that we have consistently been making these sorts of investments. We've always been committed to ensuring that our partnership with the U.S. is important, and that goes both ways in terms of imports of things like illegal drugs and guns.

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Ms. O'Connell, I share your view that the continued security and integrity of the border is something that has, I think, occupied our government over the last 10 years.

You noted, for example, investments that have been made consistently over a number of years. For example, 10 years ago, the budget for CSIS was $550 million; with these estimates, it'll be over $764 million. The Border Services Agency budget was $2 billion in 2014; it will now be $2.8 billion. The RCMP budget was over $2.8 billion in 2014, and with these estimates, it'll be over $5.7 billion. We have continued to make investments, but we recognize, as we've said publicly, that there's always more work we can do.

I have become a very considerable fan of the excellent work that all of the agencies represented at the table do to protect Canadians and keep them safe. I've seen first-hand the RCMP and CBSA in terms of border security. I've seen briefings from our friends at CSIS that allow the RCMP and the CBSA to be prepared, as you noted, for intelligence-driven information that allows them to make operational decisions in their judgment.

Finally, Ms. O'Connell, I think your question was a good one. This was the conversation at Mar-a-Lago on Friday evening. It is a shared concern. We told President-elect Trump and his future cabinet secretaries that the fight against fentanyl was one that Canada absolutely understood. We have the same objective as they do—to dismantle the criminal gangs and Mexican cartels and to stop the arrival of precursor chemicals largely, but not exclusively, from China. That's work that's done every day by the men and women represented at this table with me, and the people who work for them. It's very important work that we should be proud of, because a great deal of it is done with American partners.

I think the conversation with the Americans on Friday evening was revealing, in the sense that we all took stock of the integrated border enforcement teams, for example. The commissioner will correct me if I have the geography wrong, but the Province of Quebec has an integrated border enforcement team. Partners from the Sûreté du Québec, for example, participate in this work. This model repeats itself in other parts of the country. The CBSA is a partner.

This is an ongoing and active effort that so many people lean in on. Recognizing, as Ms. Dancho said, the threat of potentially devastating tariff applications to Canadians and the Canadian economy means that we need to show Canadians—and by consequence, our American friends—that this work is ongoing and that we're prepared to step up in a visible way as well.

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

That's perfect. Thank you.

On that, there has been a lot of discussion around staffing levels at the CBSA. We know that under the Harper government, there were nearly a thousand CBSA employees cut. We reinstated that funding and actually increased it, but it has been raised that there have been questions around whether or not those staffing levels are there.

I didn't have an opportunity in the first round to ask this question, but can you or your officials confirm our staffing investments at CBSA? Has staffing gone down or has it gone up?

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Again, Ms. O'Connell, your question is a good one.

If you just look over a nine-year period, our government, as I indicated, has increased the CBSA budget by over $800 million. I have ongoing and active conversations with Ms. O'Gorman, the president, in terms of what their needs are.

I have received the Christmas list from the CBSA and the RCMP of additional resources that they think, in their judgment, would support this work, but if the president has precise details on the staffing levels, I would invite her, if there's time, to offer those views.

12:20 p.m.

President, Canada Border Services Agency

Erin O'Gorman

The CBSA has 16,300 of what we call full-time people—

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

FTEs is the bureaucratic term.

12:20 p.m.

President, Canada Border Services Agency

Erin O'Gorman

—8,500 of whom are frontline employees. Then, if you were asking for 2014, that number would be 13,700.

Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON

That's significantly more. Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Iqwinder Gaheer

Thank you, Ms. O'Connell.

Ms. Michaud, you may go ahead. You have six minutes.