Evidence of meeting #133 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbsa.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Tricia Geddes  Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Michael Duheme  Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Erin O'Gorman  President, Canada Border Services Agency
Daniel Rogers  Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Jérome Laliberté  Chief Financial Officer and Deputy Director of Administration, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Anne Kelly  Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada

11:50 a.m.

Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Daniel Rogers

Thank you for the question. I can try to answer that.

The most fundamental way of receiving top secret information is to obtain a clearance and to receive it. Having a clearance, whether it's top secret, secret or otherwise, would give someone access to that information if they have a need to know it. That's the general way that classified information is shared within and outside of the government.

The threat reduction measures available to the service allow us to apply a legal test and a legal framework that allow us, in certain instances, to disclose information to someone who does not have a security clearance in order to reduce a threat. That doesn't require the person to whom we're disclosing the information to have a security clearance, but it does constrain us within that framework with the information that we're able to share, because there is a certain legal test to be able to meet the threshold to be able to reduce a threat.

It is a fairly unique way of sharing information. It's not the only way, but that's the main difference.

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

Just to be clear, you're not able to share as much information. For example, all of the other party leaders have obtained that top secret security clearance, but you are limited in the information you can share in this case. Is that correct?

11:50 a.m.

Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Daniel Rogers

Yes. With the threat reduction measure, there's a constrained process, and we have to meet certain tests to be able to share information specifically related to the threat we are trying to mitigate.

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

With the minute I have left, Ms. Geddes—thank you for being here—I wonder if you could update us on what the department has been doing to implement Bill C-21. We heard about ghost guns. I can't tell you how proud I was to see police making an arrest using provisions of the bill that we had in there.

I wonder if you could update us on some of the other things you've been working on.

December 3rd, 2024 / 11:50 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Tricia Geddes

There are a number of regulatory amendments brought forward by Bill C-21. Some of those have to do with gender-based violence, and they're the ones I personally feel very strongly about.

We're doing some significant work to be able to accelerate and advance all the regulatory amendments included within Bill C-21. We've made progress already, but there's more to be done. One of our top initiatives right now is to be able to advance all the regulatory changes brought about by Bill C-21.

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

I met recently with a group from New Zealand, and they said our red flag and yellow flag provisions were the best in the world and that our ghost gun provisions were far ahead of every other country in the world.

Kudos to you folks, but also to us for getting that bill passed.

The Chair Liberal Iqwinder Gaheer

That's great. Thank you, Ms. Damoff.

Ms. Michaud, you may go ahead for two and a half minutes.

Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to continue the discussion with Ms. Geddes regarding Bill C‑21.

It's wonderful to hear that the measures we passed are some of the best in the world, but the fact remains: they have to be in force. Unfortunately, those measures still aren't in force nearly a year after Bill C‑21's passage.

The government also promised to bring in an assault-style firearms compensation program this fall. The program still isn't in place, and this Friday marks the 35th anniversary of the tragedy at École polytechnique, a sad anniversary indeed.

For some 30 years, the group of women representing survivors and family members affected by the tragedy has been calling on the government to ban military-style assault weapons for good. An order in council banning some 1,500 models was passed a few years ago, but other models are still being sold.

As you are very aware, under Bill C‑21, the definition of a prohibited firearm is evergreen. That means it applies only to firearms designed after the bill's passage. As a result, hundreds of models are still being sold.

PolyRemembers and a number of other groups are worried about the fact that someone who owns a prohibited model can sell it back to the government and take the money to buy a similar model that is still being sold. According to PolyRemembers, introducing a buyback program is well and good, but there is absolutely no point to the program if it allows people to buy models that are still being sold.

I think your government is serious about its pledge to bring in a buyback program. However, before such a program is introduced, is the government going to make sure that all military-style assault weapons are banned, so as not to waste taxpayer money? Owners can use the money they get from the buyback program, so it's important to make sure that the measures are actually effective in controlling guns.

We recommended creating a committee to examine the models still being sold to determine which ones could reasonably be used for hunting and which ones couldn't.

It seems to be too late to establish any such committee. I think the RCMP has the expertise to determine which firearms are used for hunting and which ones aren't. The committee met with witnesses, and apparently indigenous communities use the SKS for hunting.

Has there been any progress on the issue? When the government introduces its buyback program, will it ban all military-style assault weapons?

11:55 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Tricia Geddes

There are a series of pieces in that question, so I'm going to try to address all of them quickly, as I know we have limited time.

To be clear, further to the last question, there's obviously very important work that we still need to do to see Bill C-321 through, and all the regulatory amendments, including, as we mentioned, some significant gender-based violence regulations that I think are quite critical.

The second part is about the firearms compensation program. As we have mentioned previously here, and I know the minister has mentioned it, there are two phases planned for that.

The first phase would involve purchasing all the firearms that are currently banned from businesses, and that is happening in the near term.

The final part of the question related to other models of firearms that need to be assessed. I can assure you that the public safety employees working very closely with the RCMP firearms centre are in the process of reviewing all other models to ensure that we can work quickly to be able to identify assault-style firearms within the other models. We will continue to consult other experts, as we are able, to do so.

The Chair Liberal Iqwinder Gaheer

That's great. Thank you.

We have Mr. MacGregor for two and a half minutes.

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think I'll turn my questions to the RCMP. Because I have only two and a half minutes, maybe I'll load up two questions for you.

I met with the NPF, the National Police Federation, in October, I think, and one item that they identified with me was that they would like to see federal policing program services bolstered. That's a fair ask, because we are very aware in this committee of the dangers that are being posed by organized crime, whether with car thefts, drug trafficking, human trafficking—you name it. That's a very real threat.

Commissioner, my first question is on how you are working with the union to address that particular ask.

The other question is regarding the superlab bust in Falkland, B.C. In a previous life, I used to be a tree planter, and I know Falkland, B.C., really well. To have a laboratory of that magnitude in that small rural community is quite a shock. From my own research, I know now that organized crime is really looking into the precursors to the precursors. Soon you're going to have a chemist who is skilled enough to go to everyday items.

Can you talk a little bit about the challenge the RCMP is facing? I know you're continually adding a list of precursors that are used to manufacture drugs like methamphetamine and fentanyl. How are you addressing the challenge when you get skilled chemists who are going to go back far enough along the chain to get items that are available to everyday people?

Commr Michael Duheme

Mr. Chair, on the first part of the question with regard to federal policing, there's been work for the last couple of years now looking at how we can increase the capacity of federal policing by looking at how we train our members when they come in.

Right now, our academy at Depot in Saskatchewan, in Regina, is used for every police officer that comes in, regardless of the function they're going to do. I think we do a really good job to prepare our police officers to go to the front line, but it doesn't do much for the federal policing environment. What we're looking at is a different career stream within the organization whereby people would have a choice to do contract work or federal policing work with the appropriate training for federal policing.

On your second question, it's well known that chemists are involved, be it in meth or fentanyl. It is a challenge. They usually go into small areas, but good work is being done by sharing intelligence with the CBSA, the USBP and the DEA and working together to address that.

Look at the success we've had with the FBI with the case of the Canadian ex-Olympian snowboarder who's still on the loose right now. This was a huge fall in which we contributed, and it touched on the importing of fentanyl coming up through the United States to our country.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqwinder Gaheer

Thank you.

That concludes the first hour.

Now I'd like to suspend for maybe 30 seconds to give the minister a chance to sit down.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqwinder Gaheer

I call the meeting back to order.

I would like to welcome the Minister of Public Safety, Democratic Institutions and Intergovernmental Affairs, the Honourable Dominic LeBlanc.

I now invite the minister to make an opening statement of up to five minutes.

Noon

Beauséjour New Brunswick

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc LiberalMinister of Public Safety

Mr. Chair, thank you.

Colleagues, thank you for joining us. I hope that you were kind and gentle to the senior officials who were here before me. I hope that the same spirit of kindness continues for the next hour.

Mr. Chair, let me begin by congratulating you on assuming the chair of this important committee. I wish you a successful stewardship of this committee.

Teasing aside, I want to thank my colleagues, the officials. It's quite a collection of horsepower from the Public Safety portfolio. I'm glad that they were able to be here at 11 o'clock.

As you know, Mr. Chair, I was in a cabinet meeting that's still ongoing, and I will sadly excuse myself at one o'clock sharp because, as you know, the leaders of the opposition are meeting with the Prime Minister to talk about borders and border security and are meeting with President-elect Trump on Friday, and I was asked to provide an update. If you see me excuse myself, it will be for that reason.

It's also a moment to mention Dan Rogers and Joanne Blanchard. Joanne has assumed the chair of the National Parole Board, and Dan is the director of CSIS. It's my first time with them before this committee, and I think that they'll serve Canadians in an outstanding way. I'm happy to be here with them.

Back in March, I appeared before the committee to discuss my mandate. We talked about the work the government had done to apprehend criminals attempting to smuggle drugs and weapons into the country, as well as efforts to combat auto theft. We talked about foreign interference and the need to bring forward and pass legislation giving the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, or CSIS, the modern tools it needs to protect Canada. Since then, Canada's law enforcement agencies have done some excellent work.

Over the past two years, the Canada Border Services Agency, or CBSA, has intercepted more than 13 tonnes of illegal drugs at land border crossings across the country. In 2023, the CBSA seized more than 900 prohibited firearms and over 27,000 weapons. In June 2024, law enforcement agencies across the country took part in a nationwide operation to crack down on the manufacturing and trafficking of ghost guns. They seized approximately 440 traditional and 3‑D‑printed firearms, as well as fifty-two 3‑D printers.

As well, as colleagues will know, in October of this year, federal RCMP forces in British Columbia took down the largest, most sophisticated drug lab in Canada. This is the excellent work that the RCMP, with their partners, do in every corner of our country every day. The combined fentanyl and precursors seized at this facility alone would have amounted to 95 million potentially lethal doses of fentanyl entering our communities or being exported abroad.

On the auto theft front—something that this committee has leaned into—the Canada Border Services Agency has intercepted more than 2,000 stolen vehicles in rail yards and ports to date this year alone, already exceeding last year's work, but we recognize that there is, obviously, more good work to be done. Early trends for 2024 show a 17% reduction in auto theft, but we still recognize that these figures remain stubbornly high.

Additionally, in October of this year, the RCMP took the unprecedented step of releasing findings with respect to involvement of agents of the Government of India in serious criminal activity on Canadian soil. Due to that announcement and subsequent actions taken by the government and law enforcement agencies, to quote the commissioner of the RCMP—it's kind of awkward to quote him when he's sitting at the table, but this will flatter him—there has been a “significant reduction” to the public safety threat posed.

Additionally, in the supplementary estimates before you, Mr. Chair, our government is investing $16 million to support the RCMP's foreign interference-related criminal investigations. Those same estimates show that CSIS's budget is increasing by more than $53 million this year. While detailed breakdowns of CSIS expenditures are, understandably, classified, I can say that the tools available to CSIS have been strengthened and modernized with the passage of Bill C-70, and I thank colleagues on this committee for the good work that we did together in that regard.

This crucial funding will ensure CSIS can continue to keep Canadians safe from such threats as violent extremism and foreign interference. CSIS's budget will have increased 48% compared to 10 years ago. Under our government's stewardship, the RCMP will be receiving 101% more funding to do the important work they do for Canadians in this same period. These investments and the results that are being achieved, I think, should attest to everyone the collective concern all of us have around public safety.

Last year the government proposed a $637-million increase in the budgets of our public safety department and portfolio agencies. This year it's over $2 billion. Investments found in these supplementary estimates will combat auto theft, advance the work that the government and partner agencies are doing to combat foreign interference, provide increased police presence and investigative work to those experiencing violent hate and continue to keep communities safe across the country.

Our government will continue making responsible investments to keep our country safe.

I hope we can count on the support of all parliamentarians and members of this committee to get the votes in the supplementary estimates before you passed quickly.

I don't think it will surprise you that I'm very excited about the opportunity to answer questions from colleagues. It's something I look forward to. I was counting the days until I'd have this opportunity. It was like, “How many shopping days left before Christmas?” You can't imagine, Mr. Chair, how happy I am to be here with you this morning.

The Chair Liberal Iqwinder Gaheer

Thank you, Minister. It's great to have you here.

I now open the floor up to questions.

Ms. Dancho, go ahead for six minutes.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

There are 48 days until President Trump is inaugurated on January 20. In the next six weeks, how many more additional RCMP officers will be redeployed to the border to patrol between ports of entry by January 20, sir?

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

The government has been working with the RCMP, and CBSA in particular, on how we can increase both the redeployment of officers and acquire new technology and equipment. We will have announcements to make in the coming weeks, recognizing that January 20 is, obviously, an important moment.

I've heard the commissioner's public comments, and he's talked to me about the ongoing redeployment the RCMP and the CBSA may make, dependent upon threat assessment. I can assure you that this work is ongoing, and the details will be.... Some of it's operational police planning, which I would leave to the commissioner, but I'm happy to talk publicly about it.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you, Minister.

May I ask again about the numbers?

What are the redeployment numbers for the border. You've made it quite clear, sir, that between ports of entry, it is RCMP jurisdiction. How many will be redeployed?

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Again, Ms. Dancho, that is a very good question. I think, as a government, we haven't made those final decisions. We're working based on advice from the CBSA and the RCMP, of course.

I'll look to the commissioner and the president about whether they are in a position to say precisely how many officers will be in what particular sector or at what border crossing. Some of this might, in fact, be operational information.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you.

Actually, it's fine. We just spoke about it. It doesn't seem there have been any conversations thus far about redeploying specific resources to the border between ports of entry right now.

It's only if there is a surge from the United States into Canada. Of course, we know the Americans have an issue with what's coming from Canada into the United States. Thus far, there is no number or any plan available, from what we understand, to redeploy RCMP resources. There's also no plan to increase border agents.

Is there a number in your mind for what the plan is to increase border agents' boots on the ground by the 20th? What is the number by which you're looking to increase it?

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Again, as I said publicly, and as we reassured our American friends at the dinner Friday evening in Palm Beach, we will be increasing those numbers. I received some advice from the Canada Border Services Agency and the RCMP. I am working with the Minister of Finance, and we'll be happy to announce the details, as far as possible, when they are finalized.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you, Minister.

Again, you have been talking about a plan, but there don't seem to be any concrete meetings happening to redeploy between the borders right now. That is an area of concern, because you said that you're not interested in expanding—that it's not a priority to expand the CBSA mandate. I'm sure you saw communications from the union president that it's so frustrating, as a border agency, to see these individuals crossing, but it's not in their jurisdiction.

Will you be expanding the CBSA mandate to acting between ports of entry, given these dynamics?

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Ms. Dancho, you asked two questions.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

There were three—