Public Safety Committee on Dec. 5th, 2024

[Patrick Brown]

I have a long history with India, as I chaired the parliamentary association for nine years. In terms of more recent examples, when they passed the Citizenship (Amendment) Act in India, which I thought was discriminatory toward Muslims, I responded to a press inquiry and said I didn't support it. That obviously left organizations that represented India in Canada upset. They relayed that to me directly. The consul general at the time relayed to me directly that they believed my position on the CAA was wrong.

Other instances that I gave recently were the farmers' protests and, of course, the glorification of Deep Sidhu in Canada.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

You're saying it was more recent. Do you know the date, month or time period when it happened?

[Patrick Brown]

The Citizenship (Amendment) Act was, I believe, from 2019 or 2020. I think the farmers' protest was probably in 2020 or 2021. I don't have the exact dates in front of me. The Deep Sidhu vigil, when his memory was celebrated, was, I believe, in January 2022.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

On your end, you never felt uncomfortable with those interactions.

[Patrick Brown]

Having dealt with the Indian government on a number of issues for a long time, I'm used to them being aggressive in stating their position. That doesn't mean you change your own position.

Certainly, when it came to the recognition of 1984, I did not change my position. I didn't change my position in regard to the Citizenship (Amendment) Act or the farmers' protest. However, I'm used to the Government of India and their organizations in Canada being very clear about what they think of those issues.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Brown.

I'm already out of time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

Thank you.

Mr. MacGregor, you have two and a half minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mayor Brown, in our last exchange, I asked you—because of the leadership position you hold in your community—whether you were ever offered a specialized briefing on foreign interference by the federal government or CSIS officials, and if you would take that.

If you had won the leadership race and found yourself in the House of Commons as the leader of the Conservative Party, would you still hold the same view that, given the grave nature and threat of foreign interference in Canada, it is incumbent upon you to receive briefings so you can be best equipped to help out in any way you can?

[Patrick Brown]

Well, I don't think it's helpful to get into hypotheticals. One of my concerns about coming before a parliamentary committee is that every question has a partisan tinge. I know there have been concerns expressed about Mr. Poilievre not accepting the security briefing or clearance you are speaking about. I don't want to be part of any contrast. I will just say that I think everyone benefits from as much information as possible.

As you can tell, I'm trying not to be drawn into partisan debates, because my focus is 100% on the people of Brampton.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I understand that. I think we'll just leave your answer as it is. I respect that.

I'll end with this, since I only have a minute left. You are very well aware of the threats posed currently in Canada, specifically by the Government of India. We certainly have other foreign adversaries doing their utmost to foment dissension and unrest in Canada and to interfere in any way they can.

Maybe I will give you another opportunity.

As the mayor of a very large urban centre with a high population of racialized Canadians, what is your hope regarding recommendations you'd like to see this committee make to the federal government? We want to look for more opportunities to collaborate at all political levels to make sure we have a united front in confronting this very real threat to Canada.

[Patrick Brown]

I think it's fair to say that diaspora communities in Canada are concerned. What is the consequence of foreign intervention? What is the consequence if a consul general crosses the line or goes into the grey? In the examples of extrajudicial killings and of disputes, in an extreme case, you see a diplomat removed from Canada, but what safeguards are there for instances that may be less definitive?

I think there needs to be clarity in what is appropriate conduct in Canada and what isn't. There's a lot of foreign intervention in the grey. It would be helpful for my residents and many Canadians if what is not tolerated in Canada were made clearer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

Thank you.

Mr. Motz, you have five minutes.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mayor Brown, for being here.

I just want to follow up on the line of questioning that my colleague Mr. Lloyd asked you about Commissioner Hogue.

As you are aware, the commission was set up—and all parties agreed to this—to investigate foreign interference in our democracy. You indicated in that line of questioning that, in your opinion, the commission is the appropriate forum to deal with this issue. You also stated that you have not been contacted by Justice Hogue.

As Mr. Lloyd was asking his questions, I wanted clarification. Justice Hogue has access to all unredacted documents from CSIS with regard to this matter of foreign interference. Do you believe that the commission would have made contact with you if there had been any evidence from any source, any intelligence whatsoever, that your campaign or the campaign of any Conservative 2022 leadership candidate was involved with or was being impacted by foreign interference?

[Patrick Brown]

I think that's a question best posed to Justice Hogue, but if I had been asked to attend, that would have been the appropriate forum to attend and I would have attended.

However, as I've said publicly before, I don't believe that I have any new information to add to this discussion and investigation that isn't already in the public domain.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I want to get into, the political end for you civically.

As has been indicated, Brampton has grown dramatically over the last decade or more, and what I've been struck by is that you are not immune to violence there. On November 3, some demonstrations occurred at both a Hindu temple and a Sikh temple, and the City of Brampton was forced, in my opinion, to approve a bylaw prohibiting these nuisance demonstrations anywhere near places of worship. Now, I appreciate that this is not the first occurrence that happened there, but what precipitated the City of Brampton to pursue this sort of approach?

[Patrick Brown]

The goal of this bylaw was to make sure there was a right and wrong place to protest. My goal in introducing that bylaw was to say that places of worship should be safe spaces and that whether you go to a gurdwara, a mandir, a church, a synagogue or a mosque, everyone should be able to pray free of violence, intimidation and harassment. I know we have a constitutionally protected right to protest in this country, but we also have a charter-protected right to religious freedom, and I think too often that right is trampled on.

There's legitimate protest, and if you want to protest the Government of India, you can protest the Government of India. If you want to protest the Government of Russia and want to protest the Government of China, you have that right. I just don't want to see anyone on their way to prayer circumvented in their efforts to do so.

In our bylaw, I thought we took the right balance; we protected the right to prayer, but if a place of worship has a banquet hall and there's a foreign government rally in that banquet hall, that would not be protected. It wouldn't restrict the right to protest. It is the basic religious freedom that is protected.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

That's fair enough.

I know you don't want to become political or partisan in your responses, but I find it troubling when a city has to provide its own civic ordinances to try to deal with something that should be handled through federal legislation.

I appreciate that the City of Brampton felt that it was necessary to protect the residents of Brampton. Do you believe these protests have anything to do with and link back to Indian foreign interference?

[Patrick Brown]

The tensions have been heightened ever since the RCMP revelations about the nature of the extrajudicial killing, so a lot of the protests are linked to.... Often you'll hear organizers of the protests say that in their opposition, they're not protesting the Hindu community; they're protesting the Indian government, and there have been responsive protests where they've protested at a gurdwara. What I found is that it simply got out of control and we needed better guidelines. Protesting a foreign government is a legitimate protest, but these counterprotests and protests against each other in front of places of worship created an environment, an ecosystem, that was ripe for ugly behaviour. Unfortunately, that's what we saw.

I'll go back to what I said before on the incidents where there was violence. There were very few examples, and they had bad actors who have since been charged. Hopefully they face the full consequences of the law. Ninety-nine per cent of those in each community are kind and respectful of our laws.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Mayor.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqwinder Gaheer]

Thank you.

Mr. Gerretsen, you have five minutes.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you very much for being here today, Mr. Brown.

I don't have a lot of time, so I'm going to be precise, and I would request that you do the same in your responses.

Before coming to this meeting today, did you receive any contact from Pierre Poilievre's office, or any of his staff or anybody who might be associated with him in regard to your appearance?

[Patrick Brown]

I did not speak to Pierre Poilievre or any of his staff.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

That's in preparation for today's meeting.

[Patrick Brown]

Yes, in preparation for today's meeting.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

My second question gets to the CBC. Five individuals who were high up in your campaign specifically said that Ms. Rempel Garner was contacted by foreign diplomats and encouraged not to participate in your campaign. Are you telling this committee that you're unaware of that?