Public Safety Committee on Dec. 12th, 2024

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you.

To the RCMP, how many people do you estimate are involved in the production and distribution of fentanyl in Canada? Do you have a ballpark estimate? Is it 1,000 people? Is it 10,000 people?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I don't have a ballpark figure on it.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

You have no idea how many people could possibly be involved in the fentanyl trade in Canada.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

There are a significant number of organized crime groups.

If you're asking for a specific number, I can't give you one.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

How many organized crime groups are involved?

[C/Supt Mathieu Bertrand]

There are over 4,000 organized crime groups in Canada, as assessed by Criminal Intelligence Service Canada.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Are these 4,000 individual organized crime groups, all with their own distinct leadership and membership?

[C/Supt Mathieu Bertrand]

That's correct.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

That's stunning.

During the auto theft study, we heard from the Ontario Provincial Police that, oftentimes, when they catch people in the act of stealing cars or as a result of their investigations, it's people they've already been interacting with. It's people they've caught previously. In fact, many of these people are out on bail.

In your fentanyl investigations—when you're cracking down on these labs, making these great busts that we like to see and are catching people—are you finding that these are people who are known to law enforcement generally, or are they people who have had no interaction with law enforcement before?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Go ahead.

[C/Supt Mathieu Bertrand]

I'm happy to take that. Thank you, Commissioner.

Yes, it's fair to say that organized crime individuals are not individuals who have been arrested only once. We deal with the same individuals and groups very often.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Would you say that, in the majority of cases, the people you're catching in these things are repeat offenders?

[C/Supt Mathieu Bertrand]

That's fair to say, yes.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

In a previous Parliament under this Liberal government, Bill C-5 reduced a number of mandatory minimum penalties. Some of these mandatory minimum penalties were related to drug trafficking, and the import and export of drugs. These schedule I drugs include fentanyl. As a result of legislation like this, we're seeing that the people involved in this deadly fentanyl trade are getting back out on the streets more quickly. Obviously, you guys are catching them again in the act. It's clear that mandatory minimum penalties keep these drug pushers in prison for longer, which hopefully acts as a deterrent for them continuing that activity, or at least takes them off the street.

What is the time period between when these criminals get back on the street and when you catch them? Are they getting caught 10 years later, or are you finding that it's more frequent?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

It would be speculative on my part to say when they get back in. Most of the time, they're released under strict conditions. Some obey their conditions, and some don't.

To put a specific timeline on when they get involved again in organized crime, it's hard to put that into a quantifiable number.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

It wouldn't be a huge amount of time. We could be talking, in some cases, about days or months—maybe, in some cases, years. Certainly, there's a wide spectrum of cases.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I would agree that there's a wide spectrum, as you covered days to several years.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I agree. We can shut down all the labs we want, but if we're not shutting down the people setting up the labs, we're not going to be very effective. We need to shut down the people involved.

What can we do better to get these people behind bars so they're not out there pushing the drugs that are killing members of our communities?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I think there are multiple avenues here.

One is stopping or slowing the precursors coming into the country.

I think we need a strong outreach program to inform the Canadian public about the harm of fentanyl.

The other one is sharing information, which is ongoing in law enforcement.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I don't want to correct you because I agree with you, but this fentanyl opioid overdose crisis has killed more people in Canada than Canadians died in the Second World War. I think many Canadians know that this is a deadly epidemic. It's killed people in my family. It's killed people in many families across Canada. It's devastating. I hope you will get the resources and the legal backing to be able to continue to do your work in cracking down on these people, because we cannot allow this to continue.

As we've seen with this study, it's now costing us our international reputation. I support you in the work you're doing. I only hope that you get all the tools that you need to get that job done.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

Thank you, Mr. Lloyd.

I'll just follow up because I don't believe you answered this question, Commissioner. I'll just use my chair's prerogative.

Would stiffer penalties for drug traffickers and importers be an effective tool to combat this issue?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I would say stiffer penalties are one tool to combat the issues, for sure.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Mr. Sheehan, you have five minutes, please.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you very much for the opportunity to participate in this important study that you've undertaken.

I represent Sault Ste. Marie and the riding thereof, which is a border town. It's also a steel town. Studying Trump's tariff threat because of the border, I don't accept the premise that we're a problem, as I didn't accept that we were a problem with the section 232 tariffs.

I open up my windows when I wake up in the morning and I can see the United States. There weren't any gun turrets or barbed wire or protected....

Fast-forward to today, when I look at the investments we have made at our border just in Sault Ste. Marie.... We cross every day. I went to school in Michigan at Lake Superior State University. I crossed every single day and I saw how well the border functioned. With the sharing of information between America and Canada, when I go to the United States, they know what I potentially have done. I've done nothing, but it's that kind of sharing of information.

I remember one time when I was at Lake State, we had a Chevy Chevette full of my American friends and we pulled up to our border crossing. We were waiting in line and one of the Americans said, “Oh, man, wouldn't it be great if we were all just one big country?” I quickly said back to him, “Sure, it'd be great having one prime minister,” and then the ensuing discussion started.

That border crossing has totally changed. I recently cut the ribbon on a $51-million investment at the Sault border, which made the facility larger with bigger inspection rooms, more lanes and areas for the staff to work in.

My question, through you, Chair, to our fine friends here is, that's one example, but could you please share the examples of some of the investments in facilities?

I also toured afterward and saw the new equipment being put in there—the X-ray machines and the stuff that identifies the drugs so the officers can identify it right away—as well as the training that takes place.

Would you mind putting on record the investments that we've made to continue to work closely with the Americans and protect our borders?

[Erin O'Gorman]

CBSA is in the process of a $480-million infrastructure improvement across our land ports of entry. We have finished several of them: Fraser, Bloomfield and Ste-Aurélie. You mentioned already the new equipment in Sault Ste. Marie. We're in the process of getting ready to do St-Bernard-de-Lacolle and early work around Pacific Highway.

We are talking to the Americans about a joint facility in Beaver Creek and looking to see what that would look like. We also have additional detection equipment across the country—it's quite a long list—as well as small and large teams with detector dogs.

We've been aligning with the Americans on the infrastructure projects that have been done, hoping to not build vastly different scales.

I would then take the opportunity to point out the Gordie Howe bridge. We're getting ready for that to open and putting finishing touches on there as well.