Public Safety Committee on Dec. 12th, 2024

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 136 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, and I'd like to remind participants of the following points.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. All comments should be addressed through the chair.

Members, please raise your hand if you wish to speak, whether participating in person or via Zoom. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we are able.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on November 21, 2024, the committee is commencing its study of the impacts of President-elect Donald Trump's announced measures on border security and migration.

I'd like to sincerely welcome our esteemed guests today. Thank you for honouring us with your time. We know, certainly, that Canadians are anxious about this topic in particular, and we look forward to your comments and your feedback.

Today we have with us, from the Canada Border Services Agency, Erin O'Gorman, president, and Aaron McCrorie, vice-president, intelligence and enforcement.

Welcome.

We also have, from the RCMP, Michael Duheme, commissioner, and Mathieu Bertrand, director general, serious and organized crime and border integrity.

Welcome.

I now invite Ms. O'Gorman to make an opening statement of up to five minutes.

Ms. O'Gorman, go right ahead.

[Erin O'Gorman, President, Canada Border Services Agency]

Thank you, Madam Chair, for the invitation to appear again before this committee.

Today, I'd like to begin with a few observations about how the CBSA, the Canada Border Services Agency, continues to work closely and productively with its partners, both domestically and in the United States. Every day, border services officers at ports of entry across Canada protect Canadian communities by keeping dangerous people and goods out of the country.

But we don’t operate alone. Organized crime is a multi-jurisdictional endeavour. It would be unrealistic to think that one agency—even one country—could thwart their efforts. That’s why the CBSA works in lockstep with domestic and international law enforcement partners.

For example, domestically, the CBSA conducted eight joint operations with the Ontario Provincial Police and the Sûreté du Québec just this year alone. Working together, we intercepted hundreds of stolen vehicles and thousands of kilograms of illegal drugs.

Just this past Monday, CBSA officers in British Columbia made a major seizure of contraband and prohibited weapons, thanks to collaboration with the RCMP’s federal serious and organized crime division.

I would like to add that on the same day, at Hamilton International Airport, we seized six kilograms of suspected cannabis in three different shipments destined for France, among several other seizures that day. I could go on.

I will give you another international example. In 2023, my counterpart with the New Zealand Customs Service wrote to CBSA, thanking us for sharing vital and timely intelligence that resulted in the largest single drug seizure in New Zealand’s history: over 700 kilograms of methamphetamines.

We collaborate with countries around the world to stop the illegal import and export of drugs and other criminal activities all the time. What’s more, CBSA officers are deployed in 40 missions in 35 countries, which is our way of pushing the border out and preventing criminal elements from coming in the first place.

It goes without saying that our closest collaboration is with the United States. The cooperation between CBSA and U.S. Customs and Border Protection has been going on for a very long time, spanning the entire continent. We talk to each other regularly, at ports of entry, at my level, and everywhere in between.

We have several CBSA officials deployed across the United States, including two officers embedded within the U.S. CBP targeting center in Washington. They collaborate in the international effort to target and track illegal drugs.

The CBSA and its U.S. counterpart are jointly planning infrastructure investments. We've harmonized our work hours at ports of entry and coordinated our operations.

In some areas, our officers share the same building. Sometimes the border even cuts through the boardroom: in one case, one half in Canada and the other half in the United States. Our two agencies are co-located in Little Gold Creek in Yukon, where the Top of the World Highway connects Canada and Alaska. We're literally working side by side.

The CBSA’s collaboration goes beyond its partner agency, the U.S. CBP. We work with Homeland Security Investigations, the Coast Guard, the Drug Enforcement Agency, and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

Our partnership with the U.S. is a two-way relationship characterized by frank and open communication and ongoing problem-solving, and that will serve us very well going forward.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

I now invite Commissioner Duheme to make an opening statement for up to five minutes.

Commissioner, go right ahead.

[Commissioner Michael Duheme, Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Good afternoon, and thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for providing the opportunity to appear before this committee to talk about the RCMP's activities in relation to security at the Canada-U.S. border.

I'm joined here by Chief Superintendent Mathieu Bertrand, director general of federal policing criminal operations, serious and organized crime and border integrity.

I'll begin by providing some background on the RCMP's responsibility and actions with respect to the Canada-U.S. border.

The RCMP's border security functions and authorities are established by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act and its regulations, the Customs Act, and the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act and regulations.

The RCMP is responsible for protecting Canada's borders between official ports of entry against criminal threats to and from Canada in all modes, whether air, land, sea or Arctic.

To delineate areas of shared responsibility and cooperation in border security, the RCMP and the Canada Border Services Agency, or CBSA, have established several memoranda of understanding.

The memoranda of understanding between the CBSA and the RCMP describe in detail the division of responsibilities and specific areas of cooperation and investigative responsibility with respect to border enforcement and the administration of borders, public safety and supporting national security outcomes.

As you are aware, border integrity is a priority for the RCMP. I can assure members of this committee that we continue to work with our portfolio, law enforcement and indigenous partners across the country to ensure that we are prepared to address any border concerns.

The RCMP continues to have regular engagement with its U.S. partners on various fronts, including border integrity, serious and organized crime and issues related to the change in administration, through existing mechanisms and fora.

The RCMP also participates in numerous cross-border initiatives with the U.S. that allow for joint operations and investigations. Highly integrated multimodal cross-border teams investigate criminal threats to the Canada-U.S. border, including irregular migration and human smuggling. These teams allow for shared communications, improved response times to a border incursion and enhanced investigative capacities.

Furthermore, the RCMP has regular engagement with indigenous law enforcement partners through the existing integrated border enforcement teams located in the provinces along the Canada-U.S. border.

The RCMP is aware that cross-border crime goes beyond irregular migration. Canada and the United States are both seized with an overdose crisis that continues to be driven by synthetic drugs, including fentanyl. This crisis continues to have devastating impacts on individuals and communities in both countries.

The RCMP and its partners, such as the CBSA, are committed to addressing this public safety issue and work at all police levels in Canada and abroad. You've recently seen press conferences and news releases on the subject.

One example is the extensive cooperation among the RCMP, the FBI and other partners in the Giant Slalom Project, which targeted large criminal organizations that were producing drugs abroad and then shipping them to Canada and then to the United States; second, a seizure at a port of entry of cocaine being shipped north; and finally, the recent dismantling of several drug labs.

It's essential that the RCMP and law enforcement agencies in the United States work closely together to address threats related to these harmful substances, both at the border and elsewhere.

For example, the RCMP is working with the United States as part of the Trilateral Fentanyl Committee's task force, the North American Dialogue on Drug Policy, the Global Coalition to Address Synthetic Drug Threats and the Canada-United States Joint Action Plan on Opioids.

The fentanyl task force is a bilateral initiative established in 2023. It aims to increase cooperation and information sharing on fentanyl trends, investigations and patterns of use among various law enforcement and federal government agencies, including the RCMP.

Moreover, through the Canada-U.S. opioids action plan, the RCMP regularly collaborates with the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration, better known as the DEA, by sharing samples of illegal substances in Canada for testing through DEA's drug signature program. This co-operation provides the opportunity for intelligence sharing between our two countries to increase our collective knowledge on drug trends.

We remain confident in the ability of Canadian enforcement agencies to work together to maintain the integrity of the Canada-U.S. border and to enforce Canadian laws.

With that, I would like to again thank the committee for the opportunity to meet with you. I would be pleased to answer any of your questions.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

Thank you, Commissioner.

We will start now with our questioning, first with the Conservatives, beginning with Mr. Shipley for six minutes.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

In the news lately, obviously, there's been a tremendous amount about the border situation and the 25% tariff that's being thrown around down in the States, which would affect Canadians greatly. There are a lot of Canadians who are very nervous and upset about this. It could be coming forward and it could affect a lot of businesses and people. Now there's even talk of retaliation coming back from our side.

It's interesting that this all appears to have happened so quickly over the last couple of weeks with President-elect Trump's announcement of the issues of fentanyl and illegal immigration as problems at our border. Just a week ago or so, we had the minister here, and I asked that minister why it took comments by President-elect Trump to start acting on this serious situation.

Since that meeting, we've actually done some great research and found out that this has been an issue for quite some time. It has been very well known. I have here a meeting note from September 2023. The meeting was between the Minister of Public Safety and Ambassador of the United States David Cohen. This is an official document from Public Safety Canada.

In a nutshell, this talks about how, in September 2023, Minister LeBlanc met with the U.S. ambassador, David Cohen. A memo prepared for the minister ahead of this meeting, with input provided by the CBSA, stated that topics of interest and concern for the ambassador were fentanyl and illegal immigration at our shared border.

My question is for the CBSA individuals here today. Is it fair to say that the Government of Canada and the Minister of Public Safety in particular have been aware of the United States' concerns on these files well in advance of the election of Donald Trump?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I'm not going to speak for the minister. He's well able to do that himself.

I will point out that since taking on this role, I have attended the cross border crime forum with both this minister and his predecessor, where fentanyl, drug and firearm smuggling and human smuggling featured prominently in the agenda. Canada brought as much substance to that meeting as our American colleagues.

Out of that, the ministers and the attorneys general recognized the work we were doing to establish information-sharing agreements, told us to hurry up and asked for feedback on how we were operating together. We were quite able to give that feedback, and we were operating quite collaboratively.

I have been in several meetings where these were on the agenda and, like I said, the minister was well briefed by me and the commissioner in terms of the risks related to it.

CBSA has received funding on firearms and drugs in the past few years, as well as addressing irregular migration and stolen vehicles. The extent to which we have been given additional funding for technology, detection tools, increased law enforcement—

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you for that.

I'm sorry. I have very limited time. There's a second part to the question. Thank you.

What we're really trying to get down to is the root here. It seems that in the last two weeks this has been a big surprise. Everybody is panicking now and trying to resolve a situation.

Further to that meeting that happened in September 2023, there was a meeting in May of 2024 that was, quite boastfully, posted on X. I have the post and picture here in my hand. The post says: “Good to meet with [Minister] LeBlanc at the Embassy today to discuss how the United States and Canada are working every day to deepen our law enforcement cooperation, secure our shared border, fight the scourge of fentanyl and combat against the infiltration of transnational criminal organizations.”

That second meeting happened in May of 2024, so we know that there have been two meetings about this. This can't be a surprise to anybody within the government. The U.S. ambassador shared this photo on X, with this caption, in talking about securing the border, fighting the scourge of fentanyl and combatting the infiltration of criminal organizations.

To reiterate, would it be fair to say that the Government of Canada and the Minister of Public Safety have been aware of the United States' concerns about fentanyl and illegal immigration well in advance of November 2024?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I would say that they're Canadian concerns about fentanyl and irregular migration and illegal migration. They're concerns that are shared with the U.S., but they're not U.S. concerns. They're Canadian concerns, and they are the preoccupation of the CBSA every day. The minister is well versed in the activities that we undertake and interested in our seizures and the trends we're seeing.

These are absolutely Canadian concerns, and they're Canadian concerns that we're working on every day.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

They have been Canadian concerns, obviously, for a while. I'm not sure how well they've been dealt with.

My last question on this issue is this: Prior to President-elect Trump raising concerns about activity at our shared border, did the Department of Homeland Security, or any other department, approach the CBSA with concerns about fentanyl and illegal immigration?

[Erin O'Gorman]

We talk about it all the time.

By way of example, twice a year, I meet with our Border Five colleagues, which, of course, include the U.S., Australia, New Zealand and the U.K. My U.S. counterpart and I consistently put fentanyl on that agenda. Fortunately for our other homologues, it hasn't reached their shores to the extent it has here. We put it on the agenda. We discuss it. The Americans aren't pushing Canada. We are sharing information all the time on what we're seeing in terms of trends, precursors, transit, what's coming out of Mexico and what's coming out of China.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you.

I would say they're pushing us now.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

Thank you for the questions.

Thank you, Ms. O'Gorman.

Now we will go to the Liberals.

Mr. MacDonald, you have six minutes. Go ahead.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm going to continue some of the questioning by my colleague Mr. Shipley.

I want to make a reference to the cross border crime forum, which I think was just mentioned by the President. It was created in 1997.

Is that correct?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I could come back to you on that.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Okay.

I know that, under the previous Conservative government—I want them to be aware of this—the forum was disbanded, then re-established in 2021 or 2022.

Is that correct?

[Erin O'Gorman]

As I said, I've attended two cross border crime forum meetings. I believe there was one prior to my taking on this role. Again, we'd have to confirm, but there have been two meetings in the last two years.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you.

First of all, thank you guys for being here today, and for what you do.

I want to continue with the fentanyl discussion, because that seems to be on everybody's radar right now.

Canada and the United States share a joint commitment to secure our shared border and ensure those who would traffic in fentanyl are stopped, apprehended, disrupted and what have you.

Can you tell the committee how much fentanyl is entering the United States from Canada?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I'm going to turn it over to my colleague, who may have some statistics.

The DEA has characterized that amount as “slippage”, which is to say small amounts for personal use, mostly through the postal service. However, it's not an insignificant amount, particularly in the last couple of years, since the economics of the fentanyl coming out of Mexico make it much cheaper.

Aaron, do you have anything to add?

[Aaron McCrorie, Vice-President, Intelligence and Enforcement, Canada Border Services Agency]

I would just add that, in the first three quarters of this year, the CBSA seized 4.9 kilograms of fentanyl. For the most part, the biggest seizure was a 4.1-kilogram seizure that was export-bound for the Netherlands. The other seizures were all fairly small, personal-type seizures that were caught along, I believe, the land border.

I don't have stats that indicate any significant shipments moving south.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you, Mr. McCrorie.

I may stay with you for a moment.

What percentage of fentanyl interdicted by the U.S. originates from Canada? Do you have any of those numbers?

[Aaron McCrorie]

I don't have U.S. numbers. I think we'd have to go to U.S. CBP to get that kind of information.

[Heath MacDonald, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you.

When speaking about fentanyl, we often hear law enforcement talk about precursor chemicals.

Can someone describe what a precursor chemical is, where the precursor chemical is developed and how easy it is to ship from abroad?

Maybe Mr. Duheme has that information.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Basically, precursors are mostly coming from China. A precursor is a chemical that is, most of the time, regulated. Some of it is legally coming into Canada because it's used for different things. That's a challenge for both the RCMP and the CBSA. When it enters, it is legal. Then, when it's transformed through a lab, it becomes meth or fentanyl.

The challenge we have is regulating what is legally coming into the country.

[Erin O'Gorman]

May I add to that question?