Evidence of meeting #16 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was extremism.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:25 a.m.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Are they lone actors? Would you distinguish them as lone actors in the Middle East, or is that more of a....? I'm not even sure how to describe it.
11:25 a.m.
Counter Extremism Specialist, As an Individual
The whole point on lone actors is somewhat tricky, because even the lone wolf is born in a den. You can have inspired actors, but then you can also have people who are directed attackers, where an organization specifically funds and directs an individual to commit acts.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jim Carr
Thank you very much.
We now move to Mr. Chiang, who has six minutes in this round.
Sir, the floor is yours.
March 31st, 2022 / 11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Paul Chiang Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair; and thank you to all the witnesses who are participating today for giving their time to this valuable committee.
My question is directed to Mr. Shaikh. It is clear from your opening statement that you have a very high level of experience combatting extremism in Canada. From your perspective, how have the threats of extremism in Canada changed and evolved over the years you have been working in this field?
11:25 a.m.
Counter Extremism Specialist, As an Individual
Thank you, sir.
The main change [Technical difficulty--Editor] social media that has really amplified the messaging of threat actors, as well as given them the opportunity to recruit out in the open in many cases. I understand there's a whole other topic on what to do with “big tech” and holding them responsible, really, when it comes to allowing them to use their platforms in the way they've been used. Really, the media space is the biggest change.
Because of COVID, of course, and unforeseen circumstances such as COVID, it has thrown us into a situation where we almost don't know where the threat is going to come from tomorrow. Also, you have individuals who are basically picking and choosing from the salad bar of extremist ideologies.
Some of them may be far right, but they may also have anti-vaxxer views and all far-right members have anti-Semitic views. You have Islamophobic views. Very often you have people who are just picking and choosing and ultimately are just upset at whatever is happening in the world or just frustrated. Of course, COVID exacerbated and made that even worse.
These are some of the things that have made things different for us today from yesterday.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Paul Chiang Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON
Thank you, Mr. Shaikh, for your answer.
Our time is very valuable and short here, so I'm going to share my time with Mr. Noormohamed.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Taleeb Noormohamed Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chiang, and thanks to all the witnesses for being here.
Mr. Shaikh, it's good to see you again, as always.
Can you perhaps elaborate a bit on one of the things you talked about in your opening statement? In particular, in your view, having seen the space of ideologically motivated violent extremism as you have, what would you say is the number one threat or set of groups that Canadians should be concerned about when we think about IMVE in today's context?
11:25 a.m.
Counter Extremism Specialist, As an Individual
Sure. In Canada, we have a number of groups that pose a risk to us, and I don't mean the groups that were designated on the terrorist watch-list: Proud Boys, for example. Proud Boys Canada were not really involved in violent acts, but it's th other groups that we might not be aware of as well as we should be.
Some years ago, I think it was VICE News that did a piece on an anti-Muslim militia out in Alberta. They were openly posing with firearms. They made very clear their statements of hating Muslims and being ready to take up arms against what they saw as the invasion of Muslims in Canada.
There were a lot of questions at the time on why these people weren't being arrested, and I'm pretty sure that there are active investigations ongoing in that regard. However, these are the kinds of groups that worry me and are real threats to public safety.
More recently we saw the emergence of supposedly a group that started out as a joke, Diagolon. It's made up of former members of the Canadian Forces, individuals with real combat training, with real capabilities and who have grown increasingly radicalized, especially because of COVID. These are people with weapons. There is an alleged connection between this group and the group that was arrested at the Coutts border crossing, who were ready to engage police in a firefight, in a shootout.
These are the kinds of groups that I consider to be a real and significant threat to Canadian public safety at large.
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
Taleeb Noormohamed Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
Thank you, Mr. Shaikh.
Ms. Campana, I'll ask you the same question. Which groups should we be most concerned about?
11:30 a.m.
Full Professor, As an Individual
I completely agree with my colleague Mubin Shaikh.
The most visible groups aren't necessarily the ones we should worry about most. The most concerning ones are the semi-clandestine and fully clandestine groups whose methods and messages are largely borrowed from groups in the United States.
As a researcher, I can't necessarily name the groups, because I haven't met with them; the ethical considerations were much too significant. However, these groups are active on social media, and in other forums, and are known to be organizing in a number of provinces.
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
Taleeb Noormohamed Liberal Vancouver Granville, BC
Thank you.
With the last 30 seconds, I'll go to Ms. Davis. You talked about influencers and the fact that people are now profiting from hate and creating this type of ideologically motivated, pretty awful stuff. How do we stop it? How do we stop that funding?
11:30 a.m.
President and Principal Consultant, Insight Threat Intelligence
It's a really difficult question and one that I think needs a public-private partnership. That means talking to the tech companies and the financial service companies, and also rethinking how we think about extremism in this country.
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jim Carr
Thank you very much.
I will now turn to Ms. Larouche. Welcome to our committee. You're very welcome to be a part of this discussion. The floor is now yours for the next six minutes. Take it away.
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I listened carefully to what the witnesses had to say during the first round about the important issue of violent extremism.
My first question is for Ms. Campana.
You mentioned your work on conspiracy theory groups in Quebec and their online messaging at the beginning of the pandemic. You worked with Professor Tanner on that research. It's clear that you are well versed in these types of movements.
What can you tell us about the unity between the groups that have emerged or reappeared since the pandemic began?
We all hope that the pandemic will end soon or, at least, that we will come out of this public health emergency. Do you think most of these groups will end up disbanding or disappearing? What is likely to happen afterwards, when the number of cases decreases or the pandemic is over?
11:30 a.m.
Full Professor, As an Individual
I don't think the groups are going to disappear. They may restructure and convert to something else.
I say convert because some of the individuals and groups who were against the public health measures have now become international relations experts endeavouring to explain the war between Ukraine and Russia. We are seeing some opportunism.
You mentioned the unity between these groups at the beginning of the pandemic. What we've seen is not necessarily unity, per se, but rather a convergence, which can be very time-specific, around a particular assessment of the situation. What is COVID‑19? Is it as deadly as governments would have us believe? Do the measures in place reflect the identified risks? What do the measures mean? A wide range of responses and views have been shared, going from the most outrageous conspiracy theories to more [Technical difficulty—Editor] theories. Finding the thread that unites these groups and individuals is very difficult.
11:30 a.m.
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
What have you learned from your research about the social, family and individual factors behind the emergence of extremist groups in Canada?
The other witnesses talked a bit about this, but I'd like to hear what you have to say. What are the root causes of the emergence of these groups in Canada? What are your theories on that? What has your research shown?
11:35 a.m.
Full Professor, As an Individual
It's not easy to answer that question, because there isn't a single answer.
As my colleagues said earlier, far-right groups encompass a variety of sociodemographic profiles.
I've also done research on jihadist movements, and I can say most of their members are young men. Although there are some women, they tend to be in the background; they take care of logistics and communications. In other words, they have a supporting role.
When it comes to far-right groups, however, the profiles are a bit different. The groups are made up of older men and some women, who are taking on more visible roles although they account for a small proportion of group membership.
Oftentimes, upbringing is behind people's participation in these groups. Their parents may have had anti-establishment or racist views, and the children naturally tend towards those same views. Conversely, teenagers may try to move away from prevailing perceptions in society by joining fringe groups and sometimes skinhead groups. Little by little, they take on extremist beliefs that lead them towards violence. Others succumb to certain theories, within the confines of what we call echo chambers. That's where the responsibility of the web giants comes in. The technology behind social media makes it easy for beliefs to take hold, be reinforced and grow stronger.
11:35 a.m.
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
It's fascinating to hear what you have to say. I know the committee has examined this type of extremism in the past. As the critic for the status of women, I am especially interested in the role of women in these movements, and you talked a bit about that.
In your opening statement, you mentioned four central themes, including nativism and white supremacy. Could you tell us more about the role of women in these groups? Could you also comment on the themes you touched on in your opening statement?
11:35 a.m.
Full Professor, As an Individual
In our field research, we interviewed approximately 50 people who had been involved in far-right groups and, in some cases, who had left. We found that women were involved, but they always refused to speak with us for fear of being recognized.
Nevertheless, they are present in these groups, in a family support role vis-à-vis a spouse, husband, brother or father who has a much more active role. In some groups, women serve as the ideologues. You don't see them in forefront, but they are there. We began our research in 2013, and between then and now, what we've observed is that women are increasingly coming out into the public arena; although their views may appear to have a more moderate thrust, they actually help to promote certain messages.
Now I'll talk about the four themes. White supremacy refers to the preference given to white men and women. Nativism is a national phenomenon whereby a certain number of social and employment opportunities are granted.
A wide variety of conspiracy theories are also going around. The QAnon ideology has heavily permeated far-right groups over the past two or three years.
11:35 a.m.
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
In your view, then, these are the themes that distinguish these groups and influence their social media choices right now. You also brought up fundraising and the taking up of arms, so these groups' activities go much further.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
11:35 a.m.
Full Professor, As an Individual
The themes are quite malleable. The various groups wield them to their advantage but definitely use social media for recruitment and fundraising.