Public Safety Committee on April 5th, 2022

[Dr. Alexander Cooley]

It would be national security, yes. Thank you for that.

What we had prior to the war was the compartmentalization of issues into two streams. One was that we used to think about national security issues in terms of classic objectives and foreign policy. The other one was sort of the realm of domestic politics. Or when we talked about kleptocracy or counter-kleptocracy, that was very much viewed as sort of a niche governance issue. Now we've seen how the two relate to each other.

The question isn't just about the specific oligarchs to go after, who have ties to the Kremlin, like Abramovich or Usmanov or Sechin or Deripaska; it's rather about looking at our own professional industries. How is it that we have industries like real estate brokers, lawyers, shell company providers and reputation management firms that perfectly legally can offer these services, which all amount to the same thing—anonymizing the source of this wealth in a manner that is legal and turning it into property or social capital that enhances the status and standing of these oligarchs?

That's not just a Russian oligarch—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

I would now like to invite Ms. Michaud for a two-and-a-half-minute block.

The floor is yours when you want to take it.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Cooley, based on your knowledge of Russia, do you believe that Canada is prepared to deal with some strategies of intimidation or interference from that country? According to the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security's “National Cyber Threat Assessment 2020”, it is very likely that state-sponsored cyber threat actors will secretly pre-position themselves in Canadian critical infrastructure for attack or intimidation.

Given the current situation in Ukraine, how likely is it that Russia will intentionally or unintentionally cause damage to our critical infrastructure?

[Dr. Alexander Cooley]

I would say that the probability is high. The more groups of exiles or diasporas that exist in a particular country or community that are viewed as oppositional to the sending authoritarian country, the greater the likelihood of digital surveillance, digital intimidation and then actual physical intimidation. This isn't just a Russian issue. You also have experience of this, for example, with Chinese agents operating within Canadian territory. This is a broader phenomenon of the extraterritorial reach of authoritarians and how information technology enables that.

I do think that making sure that these particular diasporas, these particular vulnerable groups, understand their own role here and the sort of digital citizenship involved...but I think for sure you can expect that the transnational dimension here will become another battlefield for Russia. It has been for the last 10 years.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Still, this is particularly disturbing. Is Canada prepared to deal with this and protect infrastructure, institutions, businesses and citizens? This is all changing extremely quickly. Is our protection system up to date?

[Dr. Alexander Cooley]

I think that's something that you probably are in a better position to answer than I am regarding Canada. I do think that getting all different kinds of agencies on the same page to realize that it's a national security issue should be the priority here. That includes—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

[Dr. Alexander Cooley]

—asylum hearings.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you.

I'd like to move to Mr. MacGregor.

Sir, you have two and a half minutes. The floor is yours.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Dr. Cooley, I'd like to continue on the subject of the western agencies and individuals who have provided perfectly legal aid to Russian oligarchs so that they can manage their assets here in a perfectly legal way. They've used Canadian law to set up shell companies. They've invested significantly in real estate. I know that the U.K. probably has a much deeper problem with that than we do, but Canada is not immune to that.

There was a pledge in the last election to set up a federal financial crimes agency. The Minister of Public Safety's mandate letter instructs him to speed up work to establish a dedicated unit to investigate this. Do you want to take a minute and a half to expand on the financial aspect of this issue that we're looking at? Does it in any way link to Canada's national security? Is this something that our committee should be focusing on when we make recommendations to the government?

[Dr. Alexander Cooley]

Yes, I do believe it does influence national security, especially because we've seen the outsized influence that so-called oligarchs or politically important persons with this extreme wealth have. They can influence certain political party positions. They can influence certain national campaigns. Through media contacts they can set certain agendas. Of course, they can intimidate reporters to prevent them from looking into their own origins of wealth.

I actually think that the move to a federal beneficial ownership registry is an absolute national security requirement. Whether this is 2025 or 2023, it should happen as soon as possible. I think every country needs to know what the anonymous shell companies are and who's behind them that are buying luxury real estate but also other assets. I think any time you put the norm of privacy, and my client's privacy, against transparency—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you.

[Dr. Alexander Cooley]

—I think you're on the losing side.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to cut the last two speakers to two minutes each, which will take us inside the extra time that the clerk has been able to negotiate for us.

Mr. Lloyd, take two minutes, please.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for this unexpected time.

Professor Cooley, we're talking a lot about misinformation. I'm wondering if you're aware of and can comment on the well-documented misinformation campaign in the 2021 federal election.

[Dr. Alexander Cooley]

I'm sorry. Which election did you say?

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

The last federal election, the 2021 federal election.

[Dr. Alexander Cooley]

No. That's not my area of expertise.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Mr. Al-Rawi, there was a social media.... I forget. I believe it was WeChat. Is this another tool that's being used that is of concern for misinformation?

[Dr. Ahmed Al-Rawi]

I would start with Dr. Cooley about the attempts of foreign states to influence immigrant or diasporic groups in Canada. This has been an ongoing issue, so the WeChat thing is there. Definitely, there is clear evidence and an indication that the Chinese government has been and is still trying to influence the Chinese community living in Vancouver and elsewhere.

The same applies to other states. For example, the Iranian government is very active in doing the same thing regarding the Iranian communities living here in Canada. This is an ongoing issue. They usually target or make use of specific tools, let's say—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you.

Can you give us some examples, from your experience, of how that worked out in the 2021 federal election?

[Dr. Ahmed Al-Rawi]

In the 2021 election, WeChat was a clear sign of this kind of interference. There are so many other gaps that we do not fully understand.

One thing that I really like to highlight is the importance of studying ethnic Canadian media. For example—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much. I'm sorry that we don't have more time.

Mr. Zuberi, you have two minutes to take us to the end of this panel.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses.

I'd like to start with Dr. Al-Rawi. You spoke about Russian bots and misinformation. Can you let us know if the bots were trying to advantage any individuals or advantage any issues, or disadvantage any issues, aside from what you've already discussed and shared with us?

[Dr. Ahmed Al-Rawi]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I assume the question is about today, and the misinformation that happened today.