Public Safety Committee on May 12th, 2022

[Cherie Henderson]

Yes, we're very concerned about attacks on our critical infrastructure. As you can imagine, when a critical infrastructure attack happens—and I would even point you to an attack against a health care system and what happened in Newfoundland—how that impacts lives of everyday Canadians on a very serious level.

We are definitely very concerned. We are totally alive to the issue around ransomware. Ransomware can be used both in a criminal element, but we also monitor it to determine whether or not foreign interference or foreign states are engaged in that ransomware attack because of the detrimental effects it can have.

Definitely we saw what happened to the pipelines, and we want to ensure that there is no underlying foreign interference and that we can try to help those critical infrastructure sites pre-protect themselves from that type of attack.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

What work has been done to investigate the attackers of the Coastal GasLink pipeline?

[Cherie Henderson]

I can't go into the specifics of what we do in an investigation, just to ensure that we can protect our methods, but I can say that we certainly do look at these, and we use all of our investigative powers.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Are you looking at the attacks on the Coastal GasLink? Can you confirm that?

[Cherie Henderson]

I can't go into the specifics of an investigation.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Okay.

Maybe the RCMP can elaborate.

Are you investigating the attacks? Has anyone been arrested?

[D/Commr Michael Duheme]

I can confirm that the matter is being investigated, but that would be on the provincial side because there is no element right now that would fall under the federal policing mandate.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Okay.

[D/Commr Michael Duheme]

As for arrests, Madam Dancho, I'd have to follow up because I'm not up to date on that file.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Can CSIS elaborate?

Are you aware whether anyone has been arrested?

[Cherie Henderson]

That would not be under us. That would be with the local police of jurisdiction.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Okay, just to be clear, you're acknowledging that this is a very serious threat. Of course, we know that if GasLink pipelines were shut down in the middle of winter, people would literally freeze to death in many cases. One of the greatest threats, I think, facing our critical infrastructure is our ability to get these carbon-based fuels through these pipelines, making sure they're protected.

What I am hearing from you is that both the RCMP and CSIS are not aware whether anyone has been arrested as a result of the attack on the B.C. Coastal GasLink pipeline. I find it a bit surprising that you cannot confirm or deny.... It just doesn't seem that you're paying very close attention to it.

Do you care to elaborate on why you're not aware whether someone has been arrested?

[D/Commr Michael Duheme]

If that were directed at me, as I mentioned, Madam Dancho, this falls into another wheelhouse. It's not under my program, but I'd be more than happy to follow up.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I appreciate that, but CSIS just confirmed, of course, that this is a critical issue facing our country. We should all be very concerned if there are ransomware attacks or further attacks on our pipelines, and I am not really being reassured. You can't even answer whether you know if someone has been arrested, and this was a multi-million dollar attack on a pipeline.

We've seen ransomware attacks on a critical pipeline in the United States. CSIS, can you confirm that you're not aware if anyone has been arrested?

[Cherie Henderson]

What I would say is that I am not familiar with the intricacies of what's happening in regard to the police investigation. What we are trying to do is to make sure that we can get out there. We're aware of where the ransomware attack is coming from, so we can try to help with some preventive activity and to make sure that whatever we learn in those investigations can be shared among other critical infrastructure sites so that we can protect and help those...protect themselves.

However, in regard to the intricacies in an investigation, that's for the police of jurisdiction in a criminal case.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I appreciate that.

As the official opposition, I think we would collectively urge you to ensure that you're paying much more close attention to these attacks, given what we've seen in the United States and the importance of pipelines, particularly to fuel the nation and to keep us warm in the winter.

I am honestly quite shocked that neither the RCMP nor CSIS is aware whether someone has been arrested for the attack on Coastal GasLink pipeline. I am shocked.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you, Ms. Dancho.

I would now give the microphone over to Ms. Damoff, who has five minutes for her questions.

Go ahead.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you very much.

My question is for CSIS.

I wonder if you could just explain to the committee the difference between horrific crimes and when those moves into being a national security threat.

[Cherie Henderson]

That's a very good question, and thank you very much.

When we are looking at paragraph 2(c) of our act, we are looking at any sort of individual who wants to engage in serious violent activity in order to pursue a specific objective, and that can be a political objective.

When we are carefully monitoring, we're trying to determine whether or not that's already breached into a criminal.... As activity may be just criminal, versus trying to actually achieve a political change or some sort of policy change. There is a slight differentiation there.

When we do start to look at these sorts of investigations, we work extremely closely with our RCMP partners to make sure that if it is moving into, or has already been, in the criminal space.... We leave it to them so that we are efficiently and effectively using our limited resources, or our constrained resources, if I can say so, to make sure that we are using them to try to track or stop those future potential acts.

It is a bit of a balancing act, and we work very closely with our police partners, just to make sure that we are all alive and in tune to what would be criminal and what would be a terrorist attack in order to achieve a political objective.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Okay. Thank you for that.

My next question is actually following up on my colleague Mr. MacGregor's question about attacks on politicians as well as public officials. We've seen attacks on public health officers. Certainly, I know my colleague Michelle Rempel has talked about aggressive attacks on her, and I've received threats, as did the Prime Minister during the election campaign. Most recently, there were the horrible attacks that the leader of the NDP experienced in Peterborough.

Are there additional steps that the government should be taking to ensure that politicians and those in the public eye are not being subjected to these kinds of threats? I recognize that there's work being done by the Parliamentary Protective Service and the RCMP, but it seems like there are many times when these are not followed by criminal charges being laid. It still feels like it's a matter of time before this rhetoric and these kinds of aggressive anger turn into something more violent.

Perhaps that's for the RCMP.

[D/Commr Michael Duheme]

If I can bring you back to my last appearance before this committee, I shared with you some numbers that we looked at during the period of 2019 and 2020. Out of 273 files that met the criteria we selected for IMVE, 145 never met the threshold. The other ones were investigated or passed on to the police of jurisdiction.

It is a challenge with regard to meeting that threshold. When we do have a file with regard to potential threats, be it online, via phone or directly, we engage with PPSC, the Public Prosecution Service of Canada, to discuss the file to see if we've met the threshold for these threats. It is a challenge, I can say from an RCMP perspective.

I did mention that the ministerial liaison team is reaching out to all the ministers on a monthly basis, as well as the leaders of the opposition. I know that the director of the PPS as well as the Sergeant-at-Arms are doing a lot of work on their front with regard to the members of Parliament—

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I only have a minute left.

What interaction do you have with the police of jurisdiction? I know that in Halton when I called, they asked what I wanted to do. I'm not an expert on policing.

That's not a unique experience. Down in the Niagara region, the police refused to investigate an MP's constituency office that was vandalized.

What kind of liaison are you doing with local police services and should there be more?

[D/Commr Michael Duheme]

When there's a complaint or a situation of concern, we do liaise with the police of local jurisdiction. Usually it's through our INSETs, our national security teams. As well, we liaise with the Sergeant-at-Arms to make sure that he is aware of what's going on.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

I will now turn the floor over to Ms. Michaud for two and a half minutes, who will be followed by Mr. MacGregor for two and a half minutes, which will take us to the end of this panel.

The floor is yours, Ms. Michaud.