Evidence of meeting #29 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was security.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Wassim Bouanani

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jim Carr

Good morning, everyone. I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 29 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

I will start by acknowledging that I am joining you from Treaty 1 territory and the homeland of the Métis people.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motions adopted by the committee on Thursday, March 3, 2022, the committee is resuming its study of the assessment of Canada’s security posture in relation to Russia.

Appearing is the Honourable Marco Mendicino, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Safety, and he will be supported by representatives from the Canada Border Services Agency, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

Welcome to you all.

I now invite Minister Mendicino to make an opening statement.

June 9th, 2022 / 11:05 a.m.

Eglinton—Lawrence Ontario

Liberal

Marco Mendicino LiberalMinister of Public Safety

Thank you very much, Chair.

Good morning, colleagues. Just as we begin, I will endeavour to introduce quickly my colleagues who are here also to provide this committee with information and testimony, as the case may require. We have, from the RCMP, Denis Beaudoin and Michael Duheme; my deputy minister, Rob Stewart; president of the CBSA John Ossowski, and, of course, Michelle Tessier from the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.

Members of the committee, it's my pleasure to join you today as you undertake your study assessing Canada's security posture in relation to Russia. I would like to begin with an acknowledgement of the shock I know we are all feeling about what is happening in Ukraine. No words can truly describe the horrors of war and devastation across the country and the desperation of those who are still alive and those who are struggling in the face of brutal attacks.

On May 4 I had the pleasure of meeting the ambassador designate of Ukraine to Canada, Ms. Yulia Kovaliv, to hear her concerns and to explore how Canada can further support her country. We also spoke about the need to counter Russian disinformation and foreign interference. Russia's illegal invasion into Ukraine will have deep and long-term geopolitical consequences, and it directly threatens the rules-based international order.

The situation has reinforced the fact that the international community is strongest when it acts together in defence of our shared values. It has also underlined that we are not immune from threats to our own security posture here in Canada. Hostile activities by foreign state actors like Russia pose a significant risk to Canada's national security. These activities are malicious cyber-activity, including cyber-attacks, among others; threats to our critical infrastructure, like our borders, bridges and power stations; the spread of mis- and disinformation; and espionage and foreign interference.

Canada takes all those threats very seriously, and the Public Safety portfolio is well equipped to deal with them in times of peace or in times of war, even though the number of threats and their complexity have increased in recent years. Within the Public Safety portfolio, CSIS, the RCMP, the CBSA and Public Safety Canada all play an important role.

CSIS investigates threats, advises the government and, as needed, takes steps to reduce threats to Canada's security.

The RCMP is also an important player in Canada's efforts to counter hostile activities by state actors. It investigates criminal offences related to foreign interference, as well as cybercrime and allegations of war crimes.

The CBSA works around the clock to ensure our borders are safe from a variety of threats. It also supports the government's commitment to provide eligible Ukrainian nationals with access to an expedited immigration process. The CBSA will also play a key role in enforcing the legislation I announced last week to ban sanctioned Russians from entering Canada. They shall have no safe haven here.

The CBSA works closely with CSIS and other partners to conduct security screenings and to mobilize liaison officers overseas to support where needed. Both the CBSA and RCMP play an important role in the sanctions framework to ensure we hold those complicit in Russia's invasion to account.

As members know, Canada has already introduced sanctions against 700 individuals and entities this year and adopted measures targeting specific goods and sectors, all in close coordination with the international community.

Mr. Chair, I want to touch briefly on how we're equipped to respond to some specific threats, namely, those to our cybersecurity and critical infrastructure. Malicious cyber-activities that target the systems underpinning our critical infrastructure are a constant concern. They impact businesses, individuals, our economy and all levels of government. We've known for a long time that Russia has significant cyber-capabilities and a demonstrated history of using them recklessly and irresponsibly.

Public Safety Canada works with other government departments and agencies as well as international allies to attribute malicious cyber-activity to state or state-sponsored actors when it can, with confidence, link the malicious activity to a particular actor. In Canada, we're fortunate to have a national cybersecurity strategy to protect Canadians. That has already led to the establishment of the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security, a single authoritative source for expert technical advice and support for Canada and Canadians.

The centre provides public advisories, including on the Russian threat, and shares valuable cyber-threat information with Canadian critical infrastructure owners and operators. The cyber-strategy has also led to the creation of the national cyber coordination unit within the RCMP. That unit coordinates police operations against cybercriminals, including internationally, and works closely with law enforcement partners to address borderless cybercrime threats.

In light of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the government has enhanced engagements with critical infrastructure sectors. In fact, just a few weeks ago, we held a multi-sector network meeting with critical infrastructure stakeholders to discuss threats and mitigation measures for Canadian industry.

Mr. Chair, all of these efforts are bolstered by budget 2022, funding of nearly $700 million over five years, to support how we fight cybercrime and defend critical government and private sector systems and increase our collective resilience. We remain steadfastly committed to combatting foreign interference by any foreign state seeking to harm Canada.

We will continue to condemn Russia's invasion; we will continue to support the people of Ukraine, and we will continue to partner with allies around the world who share our commitment to peace, democracy and the rules-based international order.

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jim Carr

Thank you very much, Minister. I appreciate your attention to the clock, as always.

Now we move into our first round of questions. The first six-minute block goes to Ms. Dancho.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the Minister for being here today and to all of those who came with you as well. Thank you for working so hard to keep us safe.

Minister, you went over a lot about cybersecurity. I'm going to get to that.

I first want to ask you a bit about the Prime Minister visiting the NORAD command centre in Colorado. Of course, you are the Minister of Public Safety, so that's border security, as you mentioned, CSIS and the like, but of course, I think you would acknowledge that, given the threat of Russian aggression, your department, in essence, overlaps a bit with Minister Anand's Ministry of Defence. I'm sure you've had discussions of how to keep Canada safe should the worst happen—a cyber-attack or something much more scary, like a missile attack.

I want to ask you about that, because it's the first time that the Prime Minister of Canada has visited that command centre in decades. I think that sends a clear signal of how seriously your government may be taking NORAD upgrades.

Is that correct?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

I think that's a very fair assessment, Ms. Dancho. I also would echo the concerns within the premise of your question around the current state of geopolitical affairs.

I want to thank you and the other members of this committee for studying Russia's illegal invasion into Ukraine and, I think, looking at some of the post-WWII multilateral international platforms, including NORAD and NATO. It is extremely important as we not only help to support the people of Ukraine in defending their own state sovereignty but also stand up for democracies around the world. The Prime Minister's trip to NORAD, as you pointed out, is one in some considerable time and is a reflection of that commitment.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

We're seeing other countries around the world take their defence spending and their national security very seriously in light of the invasion. We've seen Germany announce that it's going to meet its 2% commitment with $140 billion in military spending. Sweden and Finland are joining NATO.

As people are moving forward, do you think that Canada should spend the $15 billion to upgrade our NORAD defences?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Ms. Dancho, I think our government is very much seized with the need to ensure that the Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence, including the community of agencies that are here within the public safety and national security apparatus, are properly resourced to defend Canadian interests both here and abroad—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Do you feel that they are properly resourced right now?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

We make a very strong case in budget 2022 to ensure that they continue to have the tools they need, so the $700 million, for example, that will go to defend our cyber-critical infrastructure, as I pointed out in my remarks, is among many other investments that we're making. There are additional resources for both the RCMP and the CBSA, as well as my department, which touch directly on the subject you're studying.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Those are important investments in cybersecurity, and I'm going to get to that, but of course, as I'm sure you've heard, just the other day the U.S. ambassador, David Cohen, criticized your government's recent budget for failing to make the necessary investments in military spending and defence.

Can you comment on whether we should be spending more, and do you agree that we should meet the 2% target?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

First, I've had the opportunity to engage with Ambassador Cohen, and I think his posting is the latest in a long line of ambassadors to Canada that reflects the very strong relationship that exists between our two countries.

I think that as we continue to ensure we're giving our members of CAF, as well as our national security agencies, the resources that we need to, we're very transparent about how those resources will be put to good use. Supporting NORAD and supporting the work we're doing to ensure that we're protecting our critical infrastructure, including cybersecurity, is imperative, and we're putting investments in the budget to do that.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

He has been quite critical of your government's investments or lack thereof in terms of what he thinks is acceptable to ensure our defence relationship of North America is strong.

We've also heard from witnesses that although Canada is a strong contributor to intelligence with the Five Eyes, we could be doing more. In essence, it was explained to me that you get out what you put in, and that we're not putting in nearly enough, which is why we weren't invited to join AUKUS, for example, as I'm sure you're aware.

Can you comment on the conversations you've had with CSIS? Have you contributed more to their budget? Do you think that more should be done so that we can be bigger players at the table when it comes to contributing intelligence to the Five Eyes and the like?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Let me say two things very quickly, because I think there were two parts to your question.

First, with regard to our co-operation with the United States, as well as other allies, we have exceptionally strong relationships with the United States, particularly in intelligence, and I think it is critical, whether it's in the Five Eyes forum or other forums, that we maintain that, particularly in light of the evolving threats to our national security.

Again, I commend the members of this committee for studying the particular threats that are posed by Russia as a result of its invasion of Ukraine.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you, Minister.

The AUKUS agreement with Australia, the U.K. and the U.S. is a collaboration in military procurement and intelligence sharing. Of course, you're in charge of CSIS—or you're the elected official in charge of CSIS. Can you explain why we were left out of that agreement? You've said that you're quite confident in our contribution, yet we were left out of that agreement by the U.S.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Without wanting to comment on behalf of other countries and the multilateral or bilateral relationships they may choose to enter into, I would just reiterate that we have exceptionally strong relationships, not only with the United States. For example, I had the chance to meet very recently with some of our Australian counterparts, who visited this country to talk about the robust collaboration that exists when it comes to intelligence.

We also have, in addition to the Five Eyes forum, very strong bilateral relationships with other countries and like-minded democracies to ensure that we are meeting the new threats that emerge geopolitically—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

I'm sorry. Thank you.

For my last question, we've been hearing from cybersecurity experts that we need to invest more money in protecting our small and medium-sized enterprises with cybersecurity: Does any of the new money you announced for cybersecurity help SMEs—

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jim Carr

I'm sorry, Ms. Dancho. We're—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

I'm sorry. It's my last technical question. Can he just answer?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jim Carr

You have 10 seconds, sir.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

There's a lot there, but very briefly, yes, some of the investments in budget 2022 will obviously accrue to the benefit of the work within the agencies that are represented here, including CSIS and the CBSA. Cybersecurity is a sector that touches on a lot of the different portfolios that are represented at this table.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jim Carr

Thank you very much.

I'd now like to turn to Mr. Chiang, who has a six-minute slot.

The floor is yours, sir.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Chiang Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good morning to the witnesses.

Good morning, Minister. Thank you for joining us today. It's good to see you again.

Minister, you outlined the threat posed by Russian disinformation to exploit and amplify divisions that already exist in Canada. In budget 2022, the government proposes to spend “$10 million over five years...to coordinate, develop and implement government-wide measures designed to combat disinformation and protect our democracy.”

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

It does, and if I could be permitted to expand, I'm quite confident that the members of this committee, and all parliamentarians, are seized with the significant risks and threats that are posed by Russia. Its latest invasion into Ukraine is a reflection of the destabilizing campaign that it is embarked upon. It hasn't only had a brutal and profoundly negative impact on the people of Ukraine; it has the potential to be destabilizing elsewhere, including here in Canada.

For instance, Russia's effort to promote a narrative that it went into Ukraine to de-nazify that country, or that it was in retaliation as a result of Ukrainian and Russian...is flat out false. The proliferation of those narratives online makes its way into the Canadian market, so we have to be very much alive to that.

Budget 2022 sets out investments that will help to address concerns around disinformation and misinformation, and the agencies that are represented at this table are very much seized with that work.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Chiang Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Thank you, Minister.

What has our government done to counter disinformation?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

There are a number of things. I touched on it in my remarks.

First, I'll say, from the sort of mile-high level, we have a national cybersecurity strategy and a national cyber-action plan, and many of the officials that are on this table are seized with that work.

For example, the RCMP would be able to investigate and potentially prosecute any foreign interference that spills over into something that could be charged under the Criminal Code. In the work that CSIS does, it is able to detect potential threats to our national security in the form of foreign interference, disinformation or mal-information. The work that CBSA does is about ensuring that, as we are accommodating Ukrainians who have had to flee from their homes because they've been destroyed, we are doing it with integrity and with security.

That is the policy architecture within which we are coordinating our efforts across government to address the threats that are posed as a result of Russia's illegal incursion into Ukraine.