Public Safety Committee on June 16th, 2022

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to move a subamendment, which is substantially what Ms. Damoff said, except when she said three meetings with one-hour panels, I wish to change that to one meeting with three panels.

I'm going to read the whole of the motion as applicable to my subamendment. At the end it retains the indication of timing that was in Ms. Damoff's motion. I understand that is something still to be discussed. I propose, if we can focus on just this subamendment and deal with just that as a subsequent issue, we'll move along most effectively.

The motion, as amended, would read that the committee study the allegations of political interference in the 2020 Nova Scotia mass murder investigation and communications, and that the committee hold one three-hour meeting that will include (a) a panel to hear from the following officials from the Nova Scotia RCMP: (i) Superintendent Darren Campbell, support service officer, Nova Scotia RCMP; (ii) Assistant Commissioner Lee Bergerman, Nova Scotia RCMP; (iii) Chief Superintendent Chris Leather, Nova Scotia RCMP; (iv) communications director Lia Scanlan, Nova Scotia RCMP; and (v) senior communications manager Sharon Tessier, RCMP; (b) a panel to hear from (i) Brenda Lucki, commissioner of the RCMP; and (ii) Deputy Commissioner Brian Brennan; (c) a panel to hear from (i) former minister of public safety and emergency preparedness Bill Blair; and (ii) deputy minister of public safety Robert Stewart; and (d) that these meetings be held following the commissioner's testimony at the Mass Casualty Commission.

I understand there are some issues around the particulars there, but I suggest we vote on that particular subamendment and then we can deal with the particulars as further potential amendments.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Has that subamendment been circulated to members of the committee?

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

No, it has not. Because we don't have it translated exactly, the clerk can't distribute it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Ms. Dancho, I see your hand up.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate Mr. McKinnon's amendment; however, I do feel it's a bit of a semantics amendment. I don't know how substantial it is, but I would make the point that three hours for, I think, about 10 witnesses, according to the original motion, is not nearly enough time. When we think that in the first hour we're inviting the numerous RCMP officials who were mentioned in the Halifax Examiner, that is not nearly enough time.

Mr. Lloyd made the point that they all have five-minute opening statements, and that would perhaps allow for one, maybe two, rounds of questioning. They are certainly a focus of this study. It would not do justice to the study and what we're trying to accomplish, which is to provide more insight into the legal testimony that was provided. Again, one hour is not nearly enough time to have opening statements and to provide rounds of questioning to each party, when it is important for the democratic process to get the full story from these witnesses.

I have great issue with the time constraints being put on the Liberal members on this. I think if we want to be open and transparent, we need substantially more time. That's why we originally proposed a full two-hour meeting for all the RCMP officials. I think that is very important and we need to stick to that.

Therefore, we don't support this subamendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Do any other members of the committee have commentary on the subamendment?

Mr. Lloyd.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

One point for clarification, do we know exactly when the commissioner is speaking to the Mass Casualty Commission? Do we have a firm date? I wouldn't want to commit to a subamendment such that anything could happen and then the commissioner's testimony to the Mass Casualty Commission could be delayed. That would then force us, by supporting this amendment, to further delay our meetings.

Also, I think the point has been made by some of our colleagues around the table that this issue is separate from what the Mass Casualty Commission is talking about. This is about political interference. It's not about the details the Mass Casualty Commission is focused on. I don't think it should be a prerequisite that we wait until the commissioner has testified before we do that.

I'd also like to know if Mr. McKinnon knows the date that the commissioner is testifying, because I can't commit to a subamendment unless I know what the date would be.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

On a point of order, Chair, right now the only change is changing the word “meeting” to “panel”. I had already submitted the amendment on the timing, so maybe we can stick to a discussion of Mr. McKinnon's subamendment, which is changing this to “panel” from the word “meeting” and suggesting one three-hour meeting. It's the only change right now. The timing of the appearance of the meeting itself has already been submitted, so right now it's just “panel” that we're discussing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Go ahead, Mr. McKinnon.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

On the same point of order, I guess the other change is that, instead of specifying “one-hour panels”, the subamendment just specifies “panels”, so it could be an hour-and-a-half panel for the large panel, and it could be a two-hour panel for the large panel. That's really up to the committee to decide separately. I would reiterate that.... Let us vote on the subamendment and we can deal with the particulars separately.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Are there any other comments from members?

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Yes, I think it's already been covered. I think this vote is on a very specific part of the language, and then the discussion on the dates will resume when we're back to debating Ms. Damoff's principal amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Okay.

Mr. Van Popta, do you have a comment before we go to the vote?

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

I do. I have a question for clarification.

I think Mr. McKinnon is saying that his subamendment was just technical and reordering things, but I want clarification on whether it would be “(v) Minister Blair's former press secretary Mary-Liz Power”. Is she still on or is part of the amendment to have her removed? Then, on “(v) any other department officials involved in the 2020 Nova Scotia mass murder investigation”, are they still in or are those out?

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Go ahead, Mr. McKinnon, for clarification.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Those witnesses were removed by Ms. Damoff's amendment, so that still has to be voted on once we get through the subamendments. Those particular witnesses were dropped by Ms. Damoff's amendment.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Madame Michaud, go ahead.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Could Mr. McKinnon please read his subamendment again before the vote?

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

That's always a good idea.

Mr. McKinnon, please read your subamendment before the vote.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, I would certainly be delighted to do that.

The motion, after my subamendments are applied, would read as follows: that the committee study the allegations of political interference in the 2020 Nova Scotia mass murder investigation and communications, and that the committee hold one three-hour meeting that will include (a) a panel to hear from the following officials from the Nova Scotia RCMP: (i) Superintendent Darren Campbell, support service officer, Nova Scotia RCMP; (ii) Assistant Commissioner Lee Bergerman, Nova Scotia RCMP; (iii) Chief Superintendent Chris Leather, Nova Scotia RCMP; (iv) communications director Lia Scanlan, Nova Scotia RCMP; and (v) senior communications manager Sharon Tessier, RCMP; (b) a panel to hear from (i) Brenda Lucki, commissioner of the RCMP; and (ii) Deputy Commissioner Brian Brennan; (c) a panel to hear from (i) former minister of public safety and emergency preparedness Bill Blair; and (ii) deputy minister of public safety Robert Stewart; and (d) that the meeting be held following the commissioner's testimony at the Mass Casualty Commission.

The substantive subamendment really is to change Ms. Damoff's language about three meetings with one panel each to one meeting with three panels.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Ms. Dancho, I see your hand up.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to clarify something. Mr. McKinnon said that the timing for the three panels had not been identified, but when he just read his subamendment again, he said three hours of three panels, I believe.

Could he clarify that? Are the hours open and it's three panels, or is it three panels in three hours?

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

It's that the committee hold one three-hour meeting that will include (a) panel, (b) panel and (c) panel.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Mr. Chair, to my point, Mr. McKinnon may have misspoke earlier. He mentioned that the timing for the hours was open with his amendment, but it is, in fact, defined to three hours. To my point, that is not nearly enough time for all of the witnesses to testify fully.