Public Safety Committee on Oct. 6th, 2022

[Caroline Xavier]

Mr. Chair, can I just get the question repeated again?

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Of course.

As this war progresses, and Russia seemingly becomes more desperate to annex certain regions of Ukraine and claim victories in the region, do you believe the cyber-threats to Canada from Russia increase, decrease or remain the same?

[Caroline Xavier]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.

What we have seen is that there have been ongoing threats from Russia with regard to their cyber capabilities, and they've demonstrated a willingness to use them. Since early January or mid-January, we've put out several bulletins, and we're putting out information about the Russian threats and vulnerabilities that they like to typically exploit, along with advice and guidance on how to mitigate them.

We have put out in our “National Cyber Threat Assessment” what our views are with regard to hostile state actors, Russia being one of them. As a result, we are concerned about whether or not the opportunities could present themselves. What we also assess, however, is that they would not be perhaps directing some of those cyber-threats directly to us in terms of our critical infrastructure, given that we are not directly implicated in the conflict. However, we continue to monitor and investigate, and identify whether or not we need to provide advice for the actions that need to be taken.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you so much.

Again, this question is for Ms. Xavier.

When you speak about hostile state actors, would you think that Russia is involved in any way in the conflict that's going on between Azerbaijan and Armenia now?

[Caroline Xavier]

I can't comment in terms of things that are not at a level that I can discuss in this unclassified environment; however, as I mentioned, we continue to closely work with our allies and monitor what is going on in the global world with regard to hostile state actors.

As we stated in our “National Cyber Threat Assessment”, we do see that Russia is one of those actors that have the sophisticated ability to be able to use their cyber programs. As a result, we are quite concerned, and it's an area where we work with our allies in identifying what the threats may be, put out necessary advice and provide intelligence to decision-makers to be able to take the necessary actions.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Chiang.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being with us today. I appreciate it.

My first question is for Ms. Xavier.

Ms. Xavier, I have read a Journal de Montréal article published in May 2022. In it, there are a number of figures on the Communications Security Establishment. According to the article, since the Russian invasion, the number of cyber-attacks has jumped 16% worldwide. In 2021, ransomware attacks shot up 151% over 2020, also worldwide. Canada alone experienced 235 known attacks.

For the benefit of committee members, could you explain why all this information is not known?

You said that this was the tip of the iceberg, but not all attacks are reported. Why aren't they all reported? Should we be doing more to encourage organizations under attack to report it?

As I understand it, there's nothing binding at this time. However, it could certainly be useful for any organization that might be a victim of an attack.

What do you think?

[Caroline Xavier]

Thank you for the question.

Of course, we'd like Canada to be immune from cyber-threats. Our agency's goal is to try to ensure that all organizations and all Canadians are aware that they need to be mindful of how they manage their data.

As you mentioned, we're seeing an increase in ransomware attacks. That's why we're working very closely with industry, various levels of government and Canadians. We're looking to educate them and raise awareness.

We're also working closely with organizations that report having been victims of cyber-attacks. However, as you said, many organizations don't report it. Nevertheless, we continue to discuss it openly with industry.

We do a lot of outreach and awareness sessions to let people know that we're there to provide the support they need. We also put out a lot of advisories to explain the risks so that they can protect themselves and prevent possible attacks.

We're concerned about this, obviously. But Canada isn't the only country suffering from the fact that many organizations don't want to disclose the attacks they are experiencing. We discuss this with all our allies around the world, and we continue to tell organizations that it's important to contact us. We know how to be discreet, and how to work with them to help them find the solution to their problem.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Xavier.

General Eyre, thank you for your opening remarks. I thought you were very forthcoming. It's refreshing to have people come in and give us the straight goods, even if some of the things you say can be scary at times. In particular, I'm referring to what you said about countries like Russia and China being willing to do anything to serve their own interests.

If I'm not mistaken, you said that you were not concerned that Canada would be the target of a nuclear attack by Russia. However, some of the experts we've had at committee didn't hesitate to compare nuclear weapons to cyber-weapons.

If you don't fear a nuclear attack, are you afraid of cyber-attacks, which could have very significant consequences for Canada?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Thank you very much for the question.

Exact comparisons are difficult between the two threats, cyber-attacks and nuclear attacks, but both pose a threat to our country and we must be prepared to respond.

I'd like to turn the floor over to Major General Wright of Canadian Forces Intelligence Command for his comments.

[MGen Michael Wright]

Thank you.

Russia is certainly able to launch cyber-attacks and target critical structures in Canada. It's also important to remember that Russia views North America as a target. It doesn't distinguish between the United States and Canada.

On the specific topic of cyber-attacks, our expert here is the chief of CSE.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Major General Wright.

That's very interesting, what you're saying about North America being a single target. I understand that North America is not in the same situation as Ukraine right now. Still, there might be cause for concern over retaliation for the economic sanctions both Canada and the United States have imposed on Russia, among the things.

Do you feel we're well prepared at this time to deal with cyber-attacks, should any occur?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Thank you for the question.

It's always difficult to prepare for a nuclear attack. We need to keep working with our colleagues at North American Aerospace Defense Command, or NORAD, so that they can send us a warning in the event of an attack.

Actually, it's hard to prepare for the consequences of an attack like that. I believe that we must continue to build our national resilience against all types of disasters—

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I'm not getting translation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Van Bynen. We'll check on that.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Okay. I can hear you in English now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Well, I'm speaking English right now, so....

General, if you could start your answer from the beginning, we'll make allowances for the time.

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

As I was saying, it's hard to prepare for a nuclear attack because there are huge consequences.

I believe that we must continue to build our national resilience to respond to the various types of disasters.

At the same time, we must continue to work closely with our American colleagues at NORAD. We believe it's critical that we receive NORAD warnings in the event of an attack on our continent.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Madam Michaud, I think you have one more minute.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I'd like to ask one last quick question.

We're right to worry about the threats that Russia poses right now.

However, considering that over 80% of Russian forces are currently invading Ukraine, can we afford to be less worried about Russia's ability to attack in any way shape or form, be it another country or North America?

We shouldn't underestimate what Russia can do.

Wouldn't you agree?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

That's an excellent observation. I must say, however, that while Russia has deployed most of its land forces, it still has many other forces. You're right, we mustn't forget the air force, the naval force and the strategic force. So, the threat is still there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

We'll go now to Mr. MacGregor for six minutes, please.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for being here. I know how valuable your time is, and our committee sincerely appreciates your being here today.

General Eyre, I'd like to start with you.

One thing we have been witnessing with Ukraine is what is possible when you have a determined fighting force combined with western training and western equipment. I think we've all been quite astonished at the capabilities of the Ukrainian military.

At the same time, I think we've also had the opportunity to learn more about Russian military capabilities, their fighting doctrine, the morale of their troops, etc. We know from public news sources that they have suffered some serious setbacks in the last month.

I know Canada and all of its NATO allies are paying attention to this conflict. In general terms, what have we learned about Russian military capability from this conflict, and how is NATO doctrine evolving from that assessment?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Mr. Chair, I thank the member for the question.

I'll say a few things and then give Vice-Admiral Auchterlonie, who monitors this on a daily basis, the chance to make a few comments.

I will say that the will to win that we see within the Ukrainian forces is probably the key determinant of their success.

We were very happy to see Ukrainian forces embracing what we call mission command—empowerment at the lowest levels to be able to go off and improvise, take advantage of the local situation and create success. We're not seeing that on the Russian side. They have very much the old Soviet mentality of a top-down, centrally driven command style. That is one of the big observations.

We've seen failures on the Russian side—failures at the strategic level to connect ends, ways and means. Their political ends have not matched their military ways and means. We've seen a disconnect there in that they've constantly had to readjust what those ends are going to be. Even now we're doubtful whether their maximalist ends are achievable.

We've seen challenges as well throughout their force, whether on the training side or in the ability to integrate combined arms—that's artillery, engineers and air force all working together. It's just not there. Their logistical challenges are pretty significant.

What we as a force have learned and reinforced is just how powerful empowering a highly motivated force and giving them the authorities and the resources to act on the ground can be.

I am very proud of the training our forces have done since 2015 and of how they have been able to impart that leadership style at the lowest level. That training continues today with Operation Unifier.

With that I'll turn to Vice-Admiral Auchterlonie.