Public Safety Committee on Oct. 6th, 2022

[Vice-Admiral J.R. Auchterlonie, Commander of the Canadian Joint Operations Command, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Chief.

As the chief noted, we've been conducting Operation Unifier since 2015, training our Ukrainian armed forces partners along with our allies—U.S., U.K., Lithuania and other countries—to ensure that they had that capability and the training to maximize their capability in the field.

I really echo their comments. The Ukrainian armed forces have been exceptionally impressive, and they're determined in their will to fight for their country. That's been quite impressive.

You talked about lessons learned, which are quite key. Obviously we're learning from this conflict. We learned from the Ukrainians in 2015. With respect to the Donbass, we took a lot of the lessons from 2015 and modified our tactics and procedures within NATO and within Canada and our allies, and we're learning today against the Russian forces.

What I would caution is that we're learning; the Russians are learning and the Chinese learning. This is something for the committee. The fact is that we're not the only ones learning from this event.

What you have seen is that cohesion in the west has happened, and that has been phenomenal, and the cohesion in NATO has been great. I think our adversaries around the globe are seeing that, and they will react to it. So as it's going on, we're going to learn. We're a learning institution. The other organizations are also going to learn from this.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

I want to get in another question for CSE. I have only a couple of minutes left.

You're aware, I think, of the government's legislation, Bill C-26, which is going to designate vital systems and vital service providers and which makes some pretty significant amendments to the Telecommunications Act. A lot of what you talked about regarding the disinformation campaigns we as a committee are very familiar with. It has informed a lot of the studying of ideologically motivated violent extremism.

Aside from what's included in Bill C-26, I'm interested in CSE's working relationship with social media companies. Can you provide an assessment of how that is and tell us what more policy-makers and the legislative sphere need to pay attention to in order to maybe make your job a bit easier in that relationship?

[Caroline Xavier]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the question. I really do appreciate it.

We actually have a great cyber partnership program with industry, with academia and with the social media organizations. I'm actually going to hand this question over to the head of the cyber centre, because he works with them practically every day.

[Sami Khoury, Head, Canadian Centre for Cyber Security, Communications Security Establishment]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the question.

As the chief pointed out, we do have a very good working relationship with lots of tech companies out there, including social media companies. The nature of our relationship with those companies is to make sure that we understand how they mitigate cyber-threats and how we facilitate co-operation in the event that we need their help in tracking cyber acts or cyber-threats. That is the nature of our engagement with cyber-tech.

We've also put out some publications, especially this year, to help Canadians spot misinformation or at least be more aware of where to get their credible news and how to spot some kinds of misinformation or disinformation campaigns. That's the threat the cyber centre takes on misinformation/disinformation and engagement with tech companies.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

You have nine seconds. Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

That wraps up round one and we will start round two. We won't be able to do a full round two. Each party will have time for only one question slot. We'll start with Mr. Lloyd for five minutes.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here.

Sir, given what you've said about the recruitment and retention challenges in the Canadian Forces and how serious they are for our readiness, I'm wondering if you can tell us what the barriers or challenges are—are they philosophical, legislative or operational?—to including permanent residents in the Canadian Armed Forces.

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Mr. Chair, it's an excellent question.

Right now there are no barriers for permanent residents. We are about to make that much more public to attract that segment of our society into our ranks.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I was not aware of that. Thank you for saying that. I know, having talked to recruiters, that very often we have new Canadians or permanent residents who want to serve because they love our country. It's good that we're finding ways to include them in that.

Sir, one of the challenges we're seeing in Atlantic Canada, which we saw in Abbotsford last year, is that the Canadian Forces' ability to respond to disasters is limited, but they've taken an increasingly frontline role. I'm wondering if you can comment on your views about the benefits, perhaps, or the challenges of a civil protection force of civilians to be a force multiplier to support the military in these sorts of situations.

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Mr. Chair, it's another issue that is near and dear to us as we take a look at our ability to respond.

Let me first say that our top priority is protecting Canadians here at home. When the call comes, we shelve everything else to make sure we have the capacity to respond at speed. That being said, with the increasing frequency and intensity of these natural disasters, we are being called upon more and more to respond not necessarily as a force of last resort, but in some cases as a force of first choice.

What is needed? It's additional capacity. It could be at the municipal or provincial level. That being said—and I've publicly stated this before—given the extent of the disasters we're facing, we still have to be that force of last resort. The Canadian Forces still has to be there as the ultimate insurance policy for this country if there is not sufficient capacity.

What we provide and what any other organization should provide is that formed, organized labour pool that has its own inherent sustainment so it can supply itself; it can move itself; it can provide its own command and control and it can look after itself. That's the real value of what we provide. Any similar organization, any supplementary organization, should provide the same kinds of attributes.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

This question relates to this study.

As we know, foreign state actors are trying to target our critical infrastructure. I'm wondering if you could speak to why that is, in your opinion. Is it just because of the intensity and the frequency of these disasters that the Canadian Forces are being called upon more regularly, or is it because we've seen a degradation in our other capabilities and that is leading to the Canadian Forces...? Are our non-military capabilities being degraded? Is that why the Canadian Forces are being called upon? Why is this happening?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Again, Mr. Chair, that's a great question.

One could argue about what other capabilities. Did they actually exist, or should they exist? The other piece you talk about is attacks on our critical infrastructure. As we take a look at deterrence, how do we deter those attacks? One of the concepts or one of the sub-elements of deterrence is deterrence by denial. What that means is that adversaries' attacks are not successful, so they won't try it in the first place. If we can identify those single points of failure, if we can prove to be resilient as a society, as a nation, to thwart the intent of those attacks, they may not happen in the first place.

Our adversaries are looking for soft targets. We've learned this on operations around the world. If we present a soft target, we invite ourselves for attack.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you.

In my last 30 seconds here, I'll just observe that I think General Omar Bradley said that amateurs study strategy and professionals study logistics. I think we're seeing that the Russian logistics are absolutely collapsing on the Ukrainian front. What can Canada do to ensure that our logistics are strong going forward?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Mr. Chair, it's another item of concern. One of the observations over the course of the pandemic was that our own internal supply chain and internal sustainment system needs work.

Currently, as one of our lines of effort, one of the initiatives we're working on is increasing our own ability to sustain ourselves and to ensure that our logistics are strong. It's a work in progress. It requires people. It requires technology. It requires equipment. Given the nature of our country and the geography of our country, where we are in the world, ensuring that we can project our capabilities to where they are needed internationally but also domestically requires a high degree of logistics, which we must continue to invest in.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Lloyd.

Mr. Noormohamed, you have five minutes, please.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to echo my colleagues' comments by thanking all of you for the work you do in keeping Canada safe. It's a complicated world, and we're grateful for all that you do.

General, you spoke in your opening comments about the importance of demonstrating strength. We know that we are never going to be the largest fighting force in the world. We're not going to spend the most money on the military. What do you think the strength that you talk about needs to look like?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Mr. Chair, I firmly believe that the competitive advantage we have as a country is in being in a group of like-minded friends, allies and partners—well, like-minded or like-minded enough—who share enough in common in terms of values so that they can stand together against aggression, against adventurism and against expansionist policies. Working together with those partners, allies and friends is incredibly important, as is doing our part to share in that collective strength and collective deterrence.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you.

The second part of your closing struck me. You said that our way of life “needs to be defended”. What does that defence look like, in your view?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Mr. Chair, in my view, that means engaging in the world responsibly, supporting our friends and allies when they need support, doing our part to support them, being ready to support them and being transparent about our intentions.

Let's face it, the rules-based international order that has been in place since the end of the Second World War has underpinned our national prosperity. It has underpinned our economic growth. I for one believe it's worth defending.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Ms. Xavier, you spoke at length about state-sponsored cyber-crime and the threat Russia poses to our way of living and the fabric of our Canadian society by spreading disinformation.

Based on your work and what you have seen, can you tell us what impact these threats are having on Canada?

[Caroline Xavier]

Thank you for the question.

I'd like to confirm that I understood your question correctly.

You're asking me to comment on what I've seen, based on my work.

Is that correct?

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I'm talking about what you've seen in the course of your work.

I realize that there is classified information and you can't discuss that with us. Of the threats you can discuss, which ones have you seen and how have they impacted Canada?

[Caroline Xavier]

Thank you for the question.

What I can tell you is that the Communications Security Establishment Act authorizes us to shut things down using the tools available to us, to protect ourselves and to make sure that our systems can defend themselves against those threats.

As mentioned earlier, we work very closely with our international partners, especially those in the Five Eyes.

We make sure that we have the capacity to know what types of threats exist so that we can get the information to Canadians and businesses that need it. It's about protecting not just government systems, but critical systems that are essential to managing Canada.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

The other thing you talked about, and it was almost like a passing comment, was that you had to resort to Twitter to explain something to Canadians.

How has CSE had to change the way you think about dealing with misinformation in your own operations and, in particular, how you talk to Canadians?

For a very long time nobody knew what CSE was, and everyone was quite happy about that. When I was a young public servant, somebody tried to recruit me to CSE, and I had no idea what it was. Now you've taken a more public posture. You've had to do that in the world in which we operate. How has it changed the way in which you do your business in terms of letting Canadians know about things they need to know about, and what has that meant for your organization?

[Caroline Xavier]

Thank you very much for the question. I really do appreciate that.

You're right that we have had to look at things differently. We've had to change the way in which we work. We're really proud of the fact that we've had to do this categorical shift on this aspect of having to use Twitter and declassify intelligence to be able to share it with Canadians but also with allies that are fighting...with partners that are in Ukraine. This is unprecedented.

These are not things we've had to do before, but we continue to explore ways and manners in which we can continue to ensure that Canadians are aware of the threats in whatever manner we can that doesn't impact our trade craft or impact the way in which we do our business.

This is the new world for us, and we're going to continue to explore how that can happen. One of the ways in which we've seen some good success in that space has been to declassify information and make sure that the real information is out there and to encourage me and others to amplify the correct information.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you very much.

I'll share what time I have left.