Evidence of meeting #38 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was firearms.
A recording is available from Parliament.
6 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
Thank you, Mr. Schiefke.
Ms. Michaud, you now have the floor for six minutes.
6 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I thank the witnesses for being here.
Mr. Guénette and Mr. Gauthier, thank you for accepting our invitation to testify today; we appreciate it. We met a few months ago. That's when you introduced me to this sport, which I was not at all familiar with and which I think Bill C‑21 targets quite unfairly.
Earlier I commended the approach taken by Airsoft in Canada. I would like to convey the same message to you: you have opted for a constructive approach. In your brief, which I have read, you propose solutions, a middle ground. This allows us to have a constructive dialogue, and I thank you for that.
I very much liked the questions posed by my colleague Mr. Schiefke. However, I would have liked it even more if the government had put them to you before tabling Bill C‑21. Indeed, I have the impression that the government has not consulted your industry and is proposing measures that are a bit vague.
I would like to ask you some questions in this regard. You talked about the definition of likeness in a document that the government gave us to explain how they're going to do it. The government says they want to ban air guns that look like real guns.
How do manufacturers and retailers of airsoft guns feel about this? What do they think of this definition?
To my mind, the distinction between what looks like a firearm and what doesn't is pretty blurry. I think it will have to be defined in the bill. When the committee met with the officials two weeks ago, they did not seem to know what was meant by the law. Now, before we legislate on these issues, which are quite important and can have a big impact on your industry, we should be clear.
Can you tell us more about the definition of likeness? How could air guns that are very similar to real guns be modified before they come to market?
6 p.m.
First Vice-President, Fédération sportive d’airsoft du Québec
You are absolutely right.
The first draft of Bill C‑21 has no doubt given many people on Parliament Hill an opportunity to learn about airsoft shooting. It gives us a good opportunity to take a stand.
The definition of what looks like a firearm is quite subjective. Indeed, as long as there is a barrel, that is, something long with an opening at the end, or something that looks like a handle, almost everyone, in almost every situation, thinks it is a firearm.
Our first recommendation would be to remove the words “or intended [...]to resemble with near precision” that are found under the definition of “replica firearm” in the Criminal Code, as amended by subsection 1(1) of the current bill. In our view, this is really where the problem lies and this is the most important problem we have with Bill C‑21.
6 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Earlier, you said that you agreed that the purchase of airsoft shooting equipment should be restricted to those 18 years and older. You also talked about safe storage and transportation of this equipment, similar to what sport shooters do with their real firearms. You also said you agreed that there should be different marking.
Is there anything else you haven't mentioned or that we missed? Your submission indicates that we could look to the laws in California and Britain for inspiration.
6 p.m.
First Vice-President, Fédération sportive d’airsoft du Québec
We can draw inspiration from the various good practices that exist around the world. So I invite all stakeholders to get together to find the perfect practice for Canada and for Quebec.
That said, I would like to bring another element to your attention. Quebec retailers are proactive in that they have already long required purchasers of airsoft shooting equipment to purchase a carrying box, whether it is for repairing a marker or for bulk purchase. The primary reason for the existence of the FSAQ, which was created in 2018, is to promote safety in our sport.
6 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you.
Mr. Gauthier, I think you want to add something.
6:05 p.m.
Second Vice-President, Fédération sportive d’airsoft du Québec
I would indeed like to add a relevant clarification to your question.
I don't know if it's like this in Ontario or the rest of the provinces, but the airsoft shooting community in Quebec has a lot of children or teenagers, who come to play and participate in events accompanied by their parents.
The province's largest family organizer, the Club des petits guerriers, has 2,600 members and provides mandatory health, safety and toy airsoft gun training to any minor player who wants to participate in an event.
6:05 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you very much.
Mr. Chair, I don't know if I have time left to ask Mr. Bernado a question.
6:05 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
So I'm going to stop here.
We'll talk later, Mr. Bernado, and thank you for your testimony.
6:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
Thank you, Ms. Michaud.
We will go now to Mr. MacGregor. You have six minutes, please.
6:05 p.m.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Bernardo, I'd like to start with you.
Bill C-21 covers a few different areas. Clause 14 does provide, for some of the offences in the Criminal Code—such as possession of a prohibited or a restricted firearm, possession of a weapon obtained by the commission of an offence, and a number of weapons trafficking charges—an increased penalty, going up from the current 10 years to 14 years, thus allowing a judge freedom to impose a harsher sentence.
Are you in agreement with that section of the bill?
6:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Shooting Sports Association
Yes. We don't have any problem with that, except that if you look at the reality, you see that they're never imposed
6:05 p.m.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Let's not deal with hypotheticals. We can only deal with the bill in front of us.
We have also had some testimony regarding the red flag laws. We, of course, want law enforcement to have the first crack at it, and they should be taking responsibility when a firearm might be posing a danger to someone or to anybody else. There's been a discussion about giving people who might be under threat of domestic violence, especially when a firearm is within the home, the ability to go to court to get an emergency protection order and allowing the judge to protect that person with anonymity, because if it were found out that they brought the charge against someone, their life might be in danger.
Do you have any opinions on that—on giving people further abilities to protect themselves when a firearm might be in the home?
6:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Shooting Sports Association
No, we have no problem with that, but we've been living with red flag laws for 25 years now. This is not new. This is an enhancement of existing laws. For 25 years now, if someone were to make a complaint that they were being threatened with a firearm, the police would have the ability to come right that minute and remove the firearm. That's in Bill C-68, in the Firearms Act. That's been around for a long time.
In terms of enhancement of that, again, there's no problem with enhancement, but I think you might be running into a little bit of a legal issue here, because we're supposed to be able to face our accusers, and that's in British common law. That's something that this committee would have to deal with. This is certainly beyond my level of expertise. That would be Supreme Court stuff.
6:05 p.m.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Sure.
Given that you are here representing the Canadian Shooting Sports Association, I want to turn my next question to shooting sports, to the different disciplines.
Clause 43 of the bill takes the time to specifically mention “the programme of the International Olympic Committee or the International Paralympic Committee”. Do you know the number of people practising in those specific professions in Canada right now?
6:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Shooting Sports Association
It's very small. It's very much an elitist type of sport.
However, there are other sports shot with handguns. There are a number of them. Examples are IPSC, IDPA, CLAS-H and cowboy action shooting. All these things involve the use of handguns. This bill makes no reference to allowing those people to continue these recreational activities with their handguns. Interestingly, the Australian legislation that banned handguns specifically did. To this day, they have thriving sport shooting communities in Australia that use handguns.
6:10 p.m.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
You are aware that in the current version of Bill C‑21 there are exemptions for people who need handguns as a part of their normal jobs or for their own protection. For example, in a previous life, I was a tree planter for eight years. I met a forester who was regularly out in grizzly country by himself. He didn't go out unless he had his .45 with him. That's an example of a profession where that would be allowed.
Is that your understanding?
6:10 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Shooting Sports Association
That program has been around a long time. It's called the wilderness carry permit.
6:10 p.m.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Yes. I'm just saying that Bill C‑21 is not changing that.
When we had Public Safety officials before our committee for our first meeting on this bill, I asked them about this, because there has been talk about how businesses will be exempted. I got them to confirm that gun ranges....
For example, in my own riding of Cowichan-Malahat—Langford, the Victoria Fish and Game Protective Association, as per Public Safety's understanding of this bill, would be allowed to legally own a cache of handguns, which people could come to their range to use under the lawful supervision of an RPAL holder.
Are you aware of that?
6:10 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Shooting Sports Association
No, that's a new one to me.
6:10 p.m.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Okay. They confirmed that this would be allowed.
In your mind, would that still allow someone to train? They could go to their local gun range. They may not be able to own a handgun themselves, but they could pay for the privilege of using one at a licensed facility.
6:10 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Shooting Sports Association
I have not seen that in this bill. I'm sorry. I'll go back and redouble my efforts to scan through the bill, but I haven't seen that.
6:10 p.m.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
In your mind, for the different disciplines, would you be in favour of seeing a little more clarity on that, because of just how elite the Olympic and Paralympic levels are?
6:10 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Shooting Sports Association
Yes, it needs a lot more clarity, because a championship shooter is like an NHL hockey player. They don't just fall off the tree. They require decades of training to get to where they have to be. It takes hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammunition to be able to get that good. It's a very difficult sport.
There's no provision made here for somebody to start. Usually they start shooting when they are eight, nine or 10 years old, and it becomes a lifetime avocation.