Public Safety Committee on Oct. 18th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Damoff.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a question for the representatives of Canadian Doctors for Protection from Guns.

I read, in an article in La Presse published in 2019, the statements of a trauma surgeon at the Montreal General Hospital, Dr. Andrew Beckett. He points out that not all cases are publicized and that he sees about one gunshot patient a week at the hospital. This is probably what prompted him to advocate for better gun control.

He said, “We need to see gun injuries and deaths as a public health crisis. It is a growing crisis in Canada, but one that is totally preventable”. He sees his stance “...from a public health perspective like the ones that led to mandatory seat belts in cars or helmets on bicycles. These are measures that save lives”.

Ms. Maggi, in your opinion, does the government sufficiently see the proliferation of firearms as a public health issue in its approach to the problem and Bill C‑21?

[Dr. Julie Maggi]

I do think that it has started to see the problem of guns as a public health issue and the reflection of the extreme risks. The red flag law within there, I think, is one example of that.

I think one thing we need to realize and be cognizant of is that even if we don't see something like the word “health” in the legislation, limiting handguns and the proliferation of guns is an example of a health intervention. That's the kind of thing we see reflected.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I understand you are in favour of emergency prohibition orders, or red flags, and suspensions, or yellow flags. Did I understand that correctly?

[Dr. Julie Maggi]

Yes, that's correct.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Since the bill was introduced, we have heard from many women's groups across the country that these measures, particularly the emergency prohibition orders, increase the danger to victims. Even though their identity may be protected, they are putting themselves at risk by reporting a potential abuser.

What do you think?

[Dr. Julie Maggi]

That is a very excellent point. I think it's critical that we work with women's groups to ensure that any legislation put forward does not increase the risk to individuals. I don't think it's something we can very quickly sort out in two minutes. I think this is an important question for ongoing discussion.

I see very similar things in my clinical practice when I'm bound to report child protection issues in the context of domestic intimate partner violence. In that situation, I'm bound to make an immediate phone call. There's a whole system in place to ensure that that family, that child, is kept safe. We need something similar in this situation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

I will go now to Mr. MacGregor for two and a half minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll use the remainder of my time with Airsoft in Canada. This is the one time we have you before our committee.

When the committee was suspended, we were having a conversation about what the U.K. has used. You mentioned two tiers of airsoft. Some are, I guess, translucent and obviously don't look like a real firearm, and then there's a more professional class. In other jurisdictions, I think California might require an orange tip on the end of the barrel.

When it comes to the appearance, I know that a lot of people in the sport have spent a lot of money on airsoft guns that really do look like the real thing. That's very important to industries like the film industry, where they want to use a replica to re-enact a historical scene, as an example.

I guess this could happen through regulations, but have you fleshed out anything on the topic of how we could modify their appearance even when the airsoft guns are in transport so that it's quite obvious what it is when you're carrying it? Maybe it has an orange tip on it so that it could not be mistaken for something else when you're going from your place of residence to where you're engaging in the sport.

Is there anything you can add to that conversation ?

[Brian A. McIlmoyle]

Thank you. I'll put that question over to Mr. Wan, as our technical expert.

[Ziming Wan]

Thank you for the question.

I believe that having something like an orange tip may not be the most effective solution. One problem right now is that there is no federal-level transport law regarding airsoft devices. Right now they're under municipal bylaws.

What would be helpful would be a universal transport-type regulation stipulating that you had to use an opaque container so that you would not be carrying one of these devices in the public eye.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Then you could never be mistaken for carrying something that looked like the real thing. Having that opaque case, in your mind, is the preference for your industry.

[Ziming Wan]

I think that is something that most responsible players are already engaging in. However, it would be good if that were enforced rather than having individual retail outlets telling their customers to do so.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you for your answer.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

That brings our second round to a close. It's as far as we can go.

I would like to thank all of our witnesses for sharing their time and expertise with us and for helping us in our study.

With that, I will suspend for two minutes as we bring in the second panel. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I'm calling this meeting back to order.

For everyone's clarification, we have a hard stop in 35 minutes, so we'll get done what we can in that time.

We'll start by welcoming the witnesses.

We have with us, from the Canadian Shooting Sports Association, Tony Bernardo, who is in the room with us. By video conference, we have Fédération Sportive d’Airsoft du Québec. We have Yannick Guénette, first vice-president, and François Gauthier, second vice-president.

Let us start with statements from our witnesses. We'll start with Mr. Bernardo.

Mr. Bernardo, go ahead, please. You have five minutes.

[Tony Bernardo, Executive Director, Canadian Shooting Sports Association]

Thank you very much.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I'm Tony Bernardo. I'm the executive director of the Canadian Shooting Sports Association. We are 62 years young and in our entire time have never had a single fatal accident on a shooting range, which is not bad.

In keeping with the five minutes allotted for me to speak and for the purpose of brevity, I will refer you to my curriculum vitae for more details.

The people who are using guns now aren't the lawful owners who have registered guns and done the background checks and been trained and safely store them. Those are not the people committing the violent crimes. It's people who are using smuggled guns from the United States. That's the vast majority of guns used in crimes, handguns.

There are all kinds of laws in effect now that those people are disobeying, so adding more laws for the lawful owners isn't going to impact the criminals, who don't care about laws. They commit them all, including murder.

According to Chris Lewis, the former OPP commissioner, banning lawfully owned handguns is just not going to solve the problem.

The National Police Federation president, Brian Sauvé, testified, “Resources should prioritize the criminal use of firearms, with a coordinated strategy that effectively combines prevention, law enforcement and social programs.”

Deputy RCMP commissioner Stephen White testified, “The reality is that of the number of firearms that were seized last year across the country—well over 30,000—the national tracing centre under the Canadian firearms program traced just a very small percentage of those handguns and other firearms.”

Speaking before this very committee in February 2022, Mark Weber, the national president of the Customs and Immigration Union, testified, “Perhaps the most glaring of all are the rail mode operations, where, according to the union's own data, as of 2019, only one one-millionth of all rail cargo was effectively being examined.”

Let me just repeat that: “one one-millionth of all rail cargo was...being examined.” The reality is that our current operational abilities in the rail field are virtually non-existent.

As of last month, media outlets have reported that 661 repeat offenders, all arrested for committing other serious crimes, were also charged with 1,514 counts of breaching firearms prohibition orders, yet our public safety minister refuses to lift a finger to fix Canada's broken firearms prohibition order system to address this serious public safety issue.

CSSA, our organization, even went so far as to present a system to remedy the firearms prohibition order problem, but no response was received from the current government, nothing at all.

These experts have all told you the problem. They have told you the so-called science to reduce gun crime. It's right in front of you. They've told you. Why is this government not listening to them? Why are you directing the efforts of this Government of Canada against the law-abiding, as opposed to directing them against the criminal misuse of these objects? It seems clear that the government is engaged in a witch hunt against millions of lawful Canadian citizens, and it raises the question, “Why?”

I would like to also address the devaluation and confiscation of handguns. This bill clearly does not simply freeze handguns or their transfers; it mandates fiscal destruction and finally confiscation without compensation. Worse, it doesn't confiscate them from me; it takes the cowardly route of confiscating billions of dollars of property from grieving spouses left behind when their loved ones perish. It literally robs large sums of money—large sums of money—from the purses of widows and widowers at their worse moments of vulnerability. It leaves this obscenely immoral issue to another government to deal with.

England didn't do it that way. Australia didn't either. Even New Zealand had the courage to pay compensation to its citizens. However, this government chooses to ignore the experience of our Commonwealth partners and British common law.

Even this government recognized how wrong this was when they enacted the May 2020 order in council confiscation of modern sporting and hunting firearms. They pledged fair market compensation for the theft of these firearms. What's the difference? The May 2020 guns you want to take away from me—the handguns—are going to come from my grieving widow.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Could you wrap it up, please?

[Tony Bernardo]

Thank you for your time and attention.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

I now give the floor to Mr. Guénette, from the Fédération sportive d'airsoft du Québec, for five minutes.

[Yannick Guénette, First Vice-President, Fédération sportive d’airsoft du Québec]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good afternoon to everyone.

I am accompanied by my colleague, Mr. François Gauthier.

At the outset, allow me to specify that the Fédération sportive d'airsoft du Québec, or FSAQ, is in favour of the control of legal and illegal firearms that were acquired legally or by illicit means. However, because airsoft markers resemble real firearms, airsoft pellet shooting is directly targeted by Bill C‑21, and its survival is in jeopardy. This is also the case for many small and medium-sized businesses throughout Quebec and Canada. We would like to officially dissociate ourselves from the firearms lobby, because the majority of airsoft shooters in Quebec and Canada do not own firearms and have no intention of becoming owners. The people who practise this activity do so primarily for entertainment purposes, similar to life-size games with a more realistic flavour.

The FSAQ wishes to work with the government and relevant authorities to remove airsoft shooting from the provisions of Bill C‑21 and find a pathway that will allow our community to continue to practise our sport within a safe or legislated framework.

The FSAQ was created in 2018, following a meeting of several stakeholders in the world of airsoft shooting. Our primary goal, which remains the same to this day, is to promote synergy and fulfillment between players, organizers and retailers in a safe environment.

The FSAQ's mandate is to establish official sport recognition and to represent the community to various government authorities, as was the case in 2020, when the FSAQ acted as a bridge between the Quebec airsoft shooting community and the Quebec government in the context of the sanitary measures imposed following the COVID‑19 pandemic. Our exchanges allowed us to demonstrate that airsoft bead shooting is a safe sport practice that respects the recommendations issued by public health.

In its current form, Bill C‑21 will deprive practitioners of their sport, which is practised by tens of thousands of Quebec and Canadian citizens of all social strata, nationalities and generations. This would also eliminate the economic benefits of airsoft shooting across the country. It is an inclusive, respectful and diverse community, just like Quebec and Canada. Our sport allows us to bond, to stay in shape and to surpass ourselves. For these reasons, the FSAQ respectfully asks you to consider the impact that Bill C‑21 will have on honest citizens who practise airsoft shooting.

Following extensive consultation with organizations, the community and international representatives in Japan, Great Britain, California and several other countries where firearms regulations are stricter than in Canada and where the practice of airsoft shooting is permitted, the FSAQ has prepared a series of recommendations aimed at providing a framework for the safe practice of this activity, which will ensure its survival and that of the thousands of jobs attached to it. In our brief, you will find possible solutions concerning, among other things, the recommended minimum age for the purchase of markers, the transportation of markers, the appearance of markers, as well as the creation of federative and sporting bodies to ensure supervision, to name but a few.

The FSAQ encourages the government to follow the example of several countries that have done so, by working jointly with us and representatives of the airsoft shooting industry to find a path towards a safe and legislative framework, which will allow the practice of our sport without altering its realistic, immersive and recreational side.

We would like to thank the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security for allowing us to testify before it about the main challenges that Bill C‑21 poses for our sport. We reiterate our willingness and openness to work together to find a viable solution to allow for the continuation of airsoft shooting in Quebec and Canada, which has been going on since the 1990s.

Thank you for your attention.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

We'll start our only round of questioning with Mr. Motz. Please go ahead for six minutes.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to Mr. Bernardo, Mr. Guénette and Mr. Gauthier for being here today.

Mr. Bernardo, I'm going to start with you. As an industry leader, would you say that the time, expenses and resources that the government expended on gun control have garnered a greater result if they had been focused on illegal firearms?

What do you recommend that they focus on? How do they do that, given your opening remarks?

[Tony Bernardo]

Thank you, Mr. Motz.

I think the first thing we have to do is start getting young people out of gangs. That's a huge thing right there. It needs to be done and it needs to have a concentrated effort. I'm not talking about putting in basketball courts; I'm talking about doing stuff to make people not want to be in gangs.

Part of the plan we had given this government was to do precisely that. As I said, we never even got a response.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

You're talking similarly to my friend Marcell Wilson's One By One Movement out of Toronto, which is doing exactly the same thing.