Public Safety Committee on Oct. 18th, 2022

[Tony Bernardo]

Correct. Mr. Wilson's program absolutely knocks it out of the park. It's really good.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

You mentioned a couple of things. You've been around this industry for many years—decades.

I've worked with my colleague across the way, Ms. Damoff, for years on this before I was on this committee. I know she's well-intended and I know the government is well-intended, but we have divisions not only on this issue but on other issues. We have divisions in this country on this issue, and I believe it's because people don't understand the current laws we have, and they work.

From your perspective, why do we have the great division on...? We have this huge need for gun control, and yet there are people who are equally as passionate and believe the evidence that's before them that says that we don't need this gun control; we need gun control, but not what's being proposed. What do you say to that?

[Tony Bernardo]

I think there are a number of factors in play. First of all is the media. Everything that most people learn about firearms comes from either a Hollywood movie or watching the CBC, and quite frankly neither one of them is very accurate.

Firearms ownership in Canada is a huge step. It takes months to get a firearms licence, and of course right now with the firearms centre being backed up for at least eight or nine months on the services we actually pay for, we are not even seeing that. People can't get courses. There's no availability.

We're trying to get people safe here. All the safety things, every safety measure that has been legitimate and actually saves lives, came from our community. It didn't come from an airy-fairy world of, “Jeez, maybe we'll try this.” We know what to do with this. That's why our safety record is as impeccable as it is.

Thank you.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Tony. I really appreciate the perspective on that.

You mentioned earlier that crime guns seized by police and examined by NWEST and others have shown that the majority of crime guns.... I'm going to mention Toronto, because that's where we have as many homicides as there are anywhere related to gun crime and gangs. I've heard as high as nine out of 10 of those firearms, the crime guns used in the commission of an offence, are smuggled in from the United States.

You mentioned rail. What can we do? We're actually trying to make a difference here on smuggled firearms, and I think we all agree that this is our number one issue. How do we deal with that appropriately?

[Tony Bernardo]

I think there have been a lot of great efforts made on this already that get more money into the hands of the CBSA, but of course every time somebody does something preventive, the crooks think up a new way to beat it, so you have to stay in front of them all the time, and there simply isn't enough money. I realize there are government announcements coming out saying that we put x number of extra hundred million dollars into the CBSA to find guns this year, but if you look really carefully, they also took it out some place else.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Exactly. The point you can make to that is that if we take the money that's going to come from the confiscation of firearms under the OIC from May 2020—the $2 billion or $3 billion, at a minimum, of that cost—plus this cost, it could be put toward effectively dealing with smuggled firearms.

I think I only have limited time left. The other issue is breaching of bail conditions on prohibition orders already in effect. There have been 660-some offenders with over 1,500 offences and firearms offences. It's the revolving door of justice. This is what aggravates Canadians. This is why they lack trust in the justice system and in governments that don't fix the loophole in the revolving door. How do we fix that?

[Tony Bernardo]

There are a number of ways to fix it. The system we proposed before is one of the ways to do it, but the biggest problem, as we see it, is that there are not enough jail spaces. What happens is that unless somebody has committed a murder, they slap him or her with a firearms prohibition and out he or she goes. We have one guy who we've actually found has had 17 consecutive firearms prohibitions and has never done a day in jail. That's because there's nowhere to put them.

What you have to do is give some teeth to that firearms prohibition order. I'd be happy to work with any member to deal with this, because this is a chronic problem that needs to be dealt with, and we have a solution.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Motz. You had five seconds left.

We go now to Mr. Chiang. Go ahead for six minutes, please.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses, first of all, for participating in our panel here.

My question is directed to Mr. Guénette.

As a former police officer, I understand that while airsoft guns may not be able to kill people in most cases, severe safety risks arise when law enforcement officers cannot tell the difference between an airsoft gun and a real gun. If they do not know if it's a real gun, they have no choice but to assume that it's a real gun. As a result, people possessing airsoft guns have tragically lost their lives.

As experts on airsoft sports, how do you propose we differentiate airsoft guns and replica guns from the real thing? Maybe it would be with bright colours or an indicator of some sort. What would you suggest?

[Yannick Guénette]

Thank you for the question.

We suggest some form of marking, among other things. For the first part of your question, I will let my colleague answer.

[François Gauthier, Second Vice-President, Fédération sportive d’airsoft du Québec]

Thank you, Mr. Guénette.

We often talk about how similar a real gun is to an air gun used for airsoft pellet shooting, which is a toy. It is difficult to tell them apart.

Nowadays, everything looks like a gun, like a camera tripod or some construction tools. In Quebec, someone had called the police to say that a person had a gun in his hands. Yet when the police officer intervened, he saw that the person had a tool in his hands. These things happen and it's hard these days to distinguish between a gun and something that isn't one.

As my colleague Mr. Guénette said, we advocate some form of marking of airsoft guns and some regulation, especially for their transportation. The law could also be tougher on people who take out an airsoft gun or anything that looks like a firearm for non-recreational purposes. As we said in the brief we filed, we are open to the idea of adding some markings to airsoft guns to make them more easily distinguishable from real firearms.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you so much for your answer.

Mr. Chair, I will give my time to Mr. Schiefke.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Chiang.

Mr. Schiefke, please go ahead for three minutes.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Mr. Guénette and Mr. Gauthier, thank you for your presence and for your opening words.

As a first question, in order to ensure that this bill does the right thing and supports the activities of members of the airsoft shooting community in Quebec and across the country, many of whom are in my riding of Vaudreuil-Soulanges, would you be in favour of requiring owners of air guns to store them in secure boxes or compartments when they are not using them?

[François Gauthier]

As we explained in our brief, we are fully in favour of safe storage. We even support safe storage during transport.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Gauthier.

As a second question, would you support requiring owners of air guns to obtain a licence to acquire such a gun?

[Yannick Guénette]

Such a licence would cause additional expenses for taxpayers. A start could be made by restricting the purchase of such weapons to those aged 18 and over. This would require fairly easy proof and could be a good option.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you.

As a third question, would you agree to require that newly produced and sold air gun models be manufactured in such a way that they cannot be mistaken for real firearms by police officers or by a victim of assault or robbery?

[Yannick Guénette]

Yes, absolutely. That said, there are different ways to ensure that an airsoft pellet gun, which is a toy, does not look like a real gun. Perhaps we should discuss this together, as well as with industry partners, to find a solution acceptable to all.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

All right.

Is it important for the airsoft shooters to have a weapon that looks as much like a real firearm as possible, like an AK‑47? Do you think they will mind if they have to buy something that does not look like a real gun?

[Yannick Guénette]

The problem at the moment is in the definition of likeness. Today's real guns look like what were imitations 10 years ago, as evidenced by an internet search for images of the F2000 model.

The answer to your question is yes. However, we need to agree on this definition of likeness and there is a lot of work to be done in this regard.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Mr. Gauthier and Mr. Guénette, thank you for your replies.

The next questions that I have are for the Coalition for Gun Control. There have been some discussions about some of the things that are not included in this piece of legislation, most notably—

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I have a point of order, Chair.

That witness is not here. Am I correct?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

That's correct.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Okay. I would imagine that concludes my line of questioning. Thank you.