Public Safety Committee on Feb. 1st, 2022

[D/Commr Stephen White]

No, it is a useful number. It does provide some insights, but I think we would need to do more tracing on a larger scale to really get some very good insight of patterns and trends.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Would you say that, if you were to take that number and apply it to other years, the number would be above average?

[D/Commr Stephen White]

We've seen an increase in recent years. As I said, the number traced last year I think was around 2,000 in 2020. Our initial look at the 2021 numbers was there were well over 3,000 requests for tracing, so we are receiving—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Is that statistically high or is it low for domestic sourcing?

[D/Commr Stephen White]

We don't yet have the tracing results for 2021 broken down yet in terms of—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Based on 2019, 2018, 2017, is that 73% consistent with data for previous years that have domestically sourced?

[D/Commr Stephen White]

I think it is pretty consistent, but I'll refer to Ms. Paquette, if she has any additional insights.

[Kellie Paquette]

Unfortunately, with regard to tracing to this level, we've only been collecting this information for a few years now. It does vary from year to year.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

The number based on the years, or a low number?

[Kellie Paquette]

Sorry?

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Is it a high number or a low number?

[Kellie Paquette]

We saw 60%, but we haven't seen a higher number than the 73%. Again, it's based on a very small subset. These figures vary significantly by type of firearm, by region and by year. So this is a national picture. For example, while 85% of the traced long guns were domestically sourced from a national perspective, the handgun figure for Ontario shows 79% of traced handguns were foreign sourced.

It really depends on if you're looking at a region, a firearm or the year.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you.

[Kellie Paquette]

I do believe this number is very high.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

However, handguns by their nature are much more smuggleable, if that's a word, than long guns, correct? Would you say there's a much higher proportion of handguns being smuggled than long guns?

[Kellie Paquette]

It depends on where you're looking at the statistics, yes, but they are much smaller, so they're easier to smuggle.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Looking at this philosophically speaking or in terms of the laws of economics, if you make something more difficult to get, it just raises the price, which creates an incentive to get that item.

I worry that we could harden the border, but we're going to see the laws of economics play out there. Is there maybe a way to reduce the demand on the consumer side for people who are criminals or could become criminals? What are the best ways we could reduce the demand for illegally trafficked firearms?

I guess Mr. White or Mr. Sauvé might be the best person to respond.

[D/Commr Stephen White]

That's something I would have to take away for some additional follow-up.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Mr. Sauvé, you noted in your NPF report that you don't believe that spending.... Maybe it wasn't you, but your report in previous years said that the money being spent on the buyback program isn't the best use of funds and that there are alternatives. One of the alternatives you posited is hiring more RCMP officers for specific tasks like involving tracing.

What are some ways you think that we could reduce the demand for illegal firearms, whether they're domestic or smuggled from abroad?

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

We're out of time, but Mr. Sauvé, but I'm going to give you 20 seconds to answer that question.

[Brian Sauvé]

Certainly.

Our challenge with the buyback program is that, once again, it's increasing the mandate of an overstretched police service that doesn't have enough boots on the ground to do what it's doing today.

As far as eliminating gun crime in Canada is concerned, that's the $64,000 question, and really it starts with a concerted approach by law enforcement community agencies doing concerted outreach with measurable metrics at the end to take the shine off that attractive lifestyle.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

For the last slot in this round, I will turn to Ms. Damoff for five minutes.

Over to you.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thanks so much, Chair.

The RCMP mentioned the straw purchases. I'd like to go back, if I could, to the regulations in Bill C-71. When someone has come in to purchase a firearm and they have a licence, the seller is calling the RCMP. Do our regulations require that the RCMP check to see that it is a valid licence and make sure that it's not counterfeit?

[D/Commr Stephen White]

Yes, they do. I'll pass it to Kellie to expand on that.

[Kellie Paquette]

Currently, restricted and prohibited firearms do require that validation of a licence. Through Bill C-71, as you've identified, for non-restricted firearms, it would be a requirement to have a valid licence and the registrar would validate that.