Public Safety Committee on Feb. 1st, 2022

[D/Commr Stephen White]

I would just add to that, Mr. McKinnon.

A key issue with regard to domestic firearms being diverted into the illicit firearms market that I mentioned earlier is straw purchasing. We have been seeing this for a while, and it is continuing— someone with a legitimate firearms licence going out and purchasing multiple firearms legitimately, unregistered, and selling those into the illicit firearms market.

We have recently put in some new enhancements to get better at identifying and working with businesses to detect that, so we're hoping, moving forward, that we're going to have a much better relationship with the businesses to be able to identify those straw purchasers who are operating.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you.

I'm going to stay with you, Mr. Sauvé. Your members of the National Police Federation basically are dealing where situations where they are the police of jurisdiction.

I'm wondering what kinds of jurisdictional issues there are when it comes to interdiction of firearms and so forth in working with the RCMP, and whether there are issues that we can address or need to be aware of.

[Brian Sauvé]

When doing some research on this before we created our position statement two years on gun violence in Canada, I haven't heard of any challenges of inter-agency co-operation, whether it be with municipal or provincial police services, the CBSA, or even Corrections Canada. However, there have been challenges with respect to legislation and improving the Canadian firearms program, for example, requirements for police agencies to submit firearms that are found or sent for destruction for tracing. Right now there is no requirement for that.

If an estate is settled and there are five guns in it, even though they may be unregistered and get turned over to the police of jurisdiction for destruction, we don't have a requirement for that police of jurisdiction to send those guns for tracing. Could we change that? Could we improve that system? Could we make different resource and technology improvements for the firearms program to be able to track guns in Canada that are not registered and perhaps outside of the mandate?

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you.

I suspect that's the end of my time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

You have about 30 seconds if you want them, Mr. McKinnon.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I'll donate them to the cause.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Okay, thank you.

We will go to Ms. Michaud for a two-and-a-half minute round.

The floor is yours.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to pick up on my discussion from earlier with Mr. White about the more well-known territories, the ones that have been known for the last few years to be good places for smuggling. The smugglers, who know them well, are very well organized in smuggling illegal firearms through them.

Even though the government is making considerable efforts and investments in this regard, through the media, we still hear traffickers boasting that the border is a sieve, that it is extremely easy to smuggle illegal weapons across it, and that smugglers travel all the way to Montreal, for example, to get these weapons into the hands of street gangs or young people.

In your opinion, what more needs to be done to ensure that this will one day stop? Even if there is no magic solution, I am sure that solutions can be put in place.

This is an extremely complex problem and beyond collaboration, partnerships and investment, what can really be done to find a solution?

[D/Commr Stephen White]

Thank you for your question.

Mr. Duheme, did you want to talk about the border?

[D/Commr Michael Duheme]

Of course. Thank you for your question.

I will repeat what I said earlier, madam, out of respect for the people who do this work every day. The atmosphere between the various stakeholders and the partnership is excellent. Capacity is always an issue, given the length of the border that has to be protected between the ports of entry.

I can tell you that the federal police have secured funding for a team to work on the entire Canadian border, optimizing the technology at certain locations and the resources required. Currently, the technology is used sporadically from the east coast to the west coast.

I mentioned earlier that the issue of geography is also problematic. We don't have all the appropriate infrastructure to receive the technology we want. That is a challenge. So we need to start placing a heightened emphasis on the technology and building focused teams to address that issue.

I would also like to highlight the excellence of our collaboration with the Americans on the technology side. Indeed, there is great co‑operation and coordination with regard to the installation of technology.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

Mr. MacGregor, I will now turn to you and offer you two and a half minutes.

The floor is yours.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

How generous of you, Mr. Chair. Thank you so much.

Mr. White, I think in a previous exchange there were some questions asked about the proposed mandatory buyback program and whether such a program would be effective. The theme of my question would really be what we can learn from other jurisdictions around the world. Who is engaging in policy that's having verifiable effects?

For example, on a mandatory gun buyback program, Australia had phenomenal success. They had measured reductions in both homicides and suicides after they engaged in their mandatory gun buyback following the Port Arthur massacre.

With respect to illegal firearms trafficking, gang violence etc., are there any jurisdictions around the world that Canada could take some serious policy lessons from, where the measurable metrics are all heading in the right direction? I think it's incumbent upon us as policy-makers not to operate in a silo but to learn from best practices. For the committee's benefit, maybe you could identify some jurisdictions that are having measurable successes and what policies are leading to those successes.

[D/Commr Stephen White]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

Unfortunately, I haven't done that type of research. I think that question may be more for policy individuals in government who may have done that research, but I am aware of the New Zealand example. Obviously, the geography of New Zealand is very different from Canada's, so I wouldn't be in a position to transition what happened there to Canada's environment. Unfortunately, I don't have that research.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I'm cognizant of the fact that we share the border with the United States, one of the biggest weapons manufacturer in the world. Would you say there are, in fact, officials at Public Safety Canada who are engaged in this research? Are you aware of it going on? I just want to be aware of that.

[D/Commr Stephen White]

I am not aware to what extent they have done that research, but that could be a place to check.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Okay—

[D/Commr Stephen White]

Mr. MacGregor, you've got 10 seconds to spend.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I will donate them back to you, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Holy smokes, we may get up to a minute. Everybody is being so generous.

Now we will turn the floor over to Mr. Shipley for five minutes.

Sir, the floor is yours.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I'm taking it, Mr. Chair.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Yes, I was just going to say, Mr. Chair, that Mr. Lloyd will be taking my time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Sure, go ahead, Mr. Lloyd.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

My question is for Mr. White. We're hearing a lot about the 73% number in 2020. Would you say that with the COVID restrictions preventing all but essential workers from crossing the border, that had a major impact on the statistic?

[D/Commr Stephen White]

That's a very good question. There are two things I would say there. First, we haven't finalized our statistics on the number of seizures for 2021, or done that analysis. Two, the 2020 numbers that I talked about were a very small subset of the total number of firearms that were seized and a small subset of the number of firearms seized linked to criminal investigations as well.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Would you say that's a statistically useful number, or are you saying that it's such a small subset that it's not really that statistically useful to you?