Public Safety Committee on Oct. 25th, 2022

[Dr. Wendy Cukier]

I think that the government has introduced this legislation in good faith. I think it's true that it's the most significant legislation that has been introduced in the last probably 20 years. However, the opposition parties have a very important role to play in holding their feet to the fire and ensuring that the most rigorous interpretation of this law is contained in the regulations and that no amendments that weaken this legislation are allowed to get through the committee. That would be my ask.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

To sum up, I understand that you are in favour of Bill C‑21. Obviously, everything can be improved. Are there any improvements you would make? Does it not go far enough in some respects? I don't think so, given your point of view, but do you think some elements go too far?

[Dr. Wendy Cukier]

I think that the obligations on the firearms officer to remove firearms when someone is identified as a risk to themselves or to any other person need to be strengthened. I think that any loopholes with respect to the ban on handguns need to be clarified, for reasons that you've identified. I think as well that we need a clear definition of semi-automatic military-style firearms in the legislation, not just in the orders in council, and I think that we have to ensure that it's well understood that firearms are a risk.

While there are legitimate uses for some firearms in hunting and for pest control—and obviously Indigenous peoples have a right to hunt—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I'm going to have to cut you off there.

[Dr. Wendy Cukier]

—we need to address those things.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

We'll go now to Mr. MacGregor for six minutes, please.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for joining our committee today as we go through the provisions of Bill C‑21.

I'd like to start with the Coalition for Gun Control and welcome Dr. Cukier back to our committee.

I was reading today the updated brief from the Canadian Association of Emergency Physicians on the red-flag laws in Bill C‑21. They are still sticking to their point from the earlier version of this bill in the previous Parliament, in that they feel that placing the onus on a family person to go through the court system is the wrong way to go. They would prefer to have a system whereby emergency physicians have a process for reporting. Unfortunately for us, though, that is primarily under provincial jurisdiction.

The testimony on how the red-flag laws are written in Bill C‑21 is kind of all over the map. I think there's an understanding out there that red-flag laws are important. They're just not sure that the way Bill C‑21 is written is the correct way to do it.

I guess I'm going to ask my question in a different way. You've had it before. Can you see any way whereby the existing clauses of Bill C‑21 can be saved, or do we need to just simply get rid of them altogether? Do you believe there is a place for a court system to be involved? We have a very high rate of suicide by firearms in Canada. Do you think there's a process whereby someone should be able to use the court system, or should it just always fall on our police services, primarily?

[Dr. Wendy Cukier]

As I said, I think the provisions were well intentioned. I do think they're based on the experience in the U.S., which is not relevant to Canada. We already have continuous eligibility checking built into the process. We already have a principle, which is that the firearms officer can remove a firearm or deny a licence to someone who is a risk to themselves or any other person. What we don't have are the provisions that require that to be done. What we don't have are the provisions that provide mechanisms whereby if a complaint is made, action is taken. From my own experience in reporting a case, I can tell you that I was on hold with the Ontario firearms office for 24 hours. I literally put the phone down, went home, came back the next morning and was still listening to music. That has to stop.

I think what we will do is provide some language, but in general we agree with the Canadian Association of Emergency Physicians in their concerns that this could be perceived as downloading responsibility to citizens rather than holding police and officials accountable. We saw the consequences of that most recently with the mass casualty inquiry in Nova Scotia .

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Part of the bill provides for Olympic and Paralympic shooting disciplines. You made the comment that there are many people in Canada who own a handgun but who do not engage in a shooting discipline. You openly wondered about the purpose of their owning a handgun if they're not part of a shooting discipline. I've heard suggestions that with the disciplines that are mentioned in the bill, there should be further requirements to demonstrate that you're an active participant and are actively training. There were concerns spoken to me about how someone could just say they were a member of a club, buy a handgun, get rid of the membership and then be left with a handgun.

[Dr. Wendy Cukier]

Well, that's my point. I'm a gymnast training for the Olympics. Do I have any chance of being a competitor in the Olympics? No, but I could say that.

There are real concerns about that issue. We know that Colten Boushie was killed by someone who said they had a handgun for shooting coyotes, which is not a legal purpose for having a handgun. We know of many cases across the country of handguns being misused. When you dig into why the person had them, there is often a large question about whether they legally acquired them. The leader of the trucker protest, for example, obtained a handgun after he was prohibited from owning firearms.

There are a lot of gaps, a lot of questions and a lot of evidence that people are arming for self-protection, which is not based in Canadian law or culture. We have to nip that in the bud.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

For my final minute, I'd like to turn to Mr. Schneiderbanger.

Over the summer I visited my local range. The Victoria Fish & Game Protection Association invited me to watch an IPSC competition. I was versed in the safety aspects of that, but for our committee and so it's on the record, can you talk about some of the safety procedures that are in place for all of the contestants who engage in the sport while they're actively on the range?

[LCol (Ret'd) John Schneiderbanger]

Absolutely, I can.

You have two levels of range officers. You have chief range officers and range officers. There are two range officers who follow the participant throughout the stage. There's a primary and a secondary officer. Each has their own specific job to do to watch for safety, while the chief range officer is watching the overall situation for safety as we go through the stage.

We run our black badge courses that you must take to be able to shoot IPSC, and it's all about safety for almost half of that course. Once we get out on the range and we do practical training, once again safety is continually—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I'm sorry, sir. I'm going to have to cut you off there.

[LCol (Ret'd) John Schneiderbanger]

That's no problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you all.

We're going to start our second round now. We won't have time for a full second round. I believe we'll have time for one slot for each party.

We'll start with Ms. Dancho. You have five minutes, please.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

My first question is for Colonel Schneiderbanger. It's nice to see you again, sir. Thank you for being with us.

You were mentioning in your remarks and past questioning today that there are police forces that utilize gun ranges that they don't own. They utilize community gun ranges. I have one of those in my community in West St. Paul, Manitoba, that the Manitoba RCMP use.

Can you reiterate your concern? Are these at risk of closing? What impact would that have on our police forces in our municipalities?

[LCol (Ret'd) John Schneiderbanger]

Yes, the ranges are at risk of closing. The vast majority of members who support these ranges are handgun owners in the sport shooting disciplines, as this is the only place they can practise their sport.

The RCMP here in my local area, my own municipal police force and border services come here to train because they don't have their own ranges. The expense to maintain their own facility would be significant, and municipalities will bear that extra cost.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, sir.

You're obviously a former military person. Did you grow up in a military family or a police family, or were you inspired on your own to join the military?

[LCol (Ret'd) John Schneiderbanger]

I was inspired to join the military on my own.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you very much for your service.

Since you've retired, you've engaged in sport shooting. How has that supported you and other veterans in your post-army life?

[LCol (Ret'd) John Schneiderbanger]

It's been fantastic. It's given me a sense of accomplishment. It's given me a chance to meet with other people from around the world and a chance to mentor, coach and teach people about sport shooting and safety. It's great for my mental and physical health. I'm almost 60 years old, and I can keep up with the young 25-year-old people, whether they're female or male, on the ranges.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you very much.

My next question is for Ms. Saretsky.

You talked a lot about the legacy in your family and how your sport shooting competition has been multi-generational. You grew up in Alberta. Is that correct? Did you grow up around ranchers, farmers and other sport shooters?

[Julie Saretsky]

Interestingly enough, I'm from Manitoba, and I hadn't been involved with any sort of firearms and such until 2017. I was a show jumper prior to that, and I was introduced to the sport. I fell in love with the camaraderie and the ability to learn how to use a firearm correctly, and I coupled it with the riding and horsemanship portion of our sport.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you very much.

You mentioned others you compete with. I want to go back to the legacy part. You said it was multi-generational. Where is that comment coming from? Are those you compete with...? You mentioned grandpas and parents.

[Julie Saretsky]

There are many families, especially in Alberta, who started mounted shooting and have been involved in shooting sports. We're a family. You'll have, like I said, multiple generations—as in grandparents, parents and children—who are involved in the sport, so it creates that family event, keeps the family together and creates family values.