Public Safety Committee on Oct. 25th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome, everyone, to meeting number 41 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

We will start by acknowledging that we are meeting on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin people.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely by using the Zoom application.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, June 23, 2022, the committee resumes consideration of Bill C-21, an act to amend certain acts and to make certain consequential amendments (firearms).

Today we have two panels. For the first hour, by video conference, we have, as an individual, retired Lieutenant-Colonel John Schneiderbanger. From the Alberta Mounted Shooters Association, we have Julie Saretsky, president; and we have, back again, with the Coalition for Gun Control, Dr. Wendy Cukier, president.

We will give each group up to five minutes for opening remarks, after which we will proceed with questions.

We'll start with Lieutenant-Colonel Schneiderbanger. You have five minutes, sir.

[Lieutenant-Colonel, Retired) John Schneiderbanger (As an Individual]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and committee members. I would like to thank you for the opportunity to appear as a witness in regard to the review of Bill C-21.

I am Lieutenant-Colonel John Schneiderbanger. I'm a retired officer who served 30 years in the Canadian Armed Forces. Prior to retirement, I was the base commander of Canadian Forces Base Shilo.

I have been a firearms owner for 40 years and a competitive sport shooter for 30 years, having competed in various shooting disciplines with handgun, rifle and shotgun. I currently compete in 3-Gun and the International Practical Shooting Confederation, or IPSC.

I am an IPSC Canada national instructor and a chief range officer with the National Range Officers Institute. I have competed in two IPSC world championships and a European handgun championship. There are between 1,200 to 1,400 world-class competitors at an IPSC world championship, representing between 75 and 85 countries.

Where do I stand on Bill C-21? My greatest concern is the freeze or ban on the importation, sale and purchase or transfer of handguns in Canada. I disagree with this. It will not significantly reduce violent crime committed with illegal handguns. The Firearms Act is in place to regulate the private ownership of firearms by licensed owners and does not regulate criminals and illegal handguns.

There are aspects in the Firearms Act that need to be better enforced, which would make a difference in strengthening and achieving the objectives of the act. Examples are prohibition enforcement and licence revocation. More regulatory legislation is being added to the Firearms Act. These additions do not address the fact that over 90% of all violent crimes with firearms are committed with illegal guns smuggled from the United States into Canada.

There are over 2.5 million licensed firearms owners who want the same thing that Canadians who do not own firearms want: We all want our communities to be safe. I believe in a logical, common-sense gun control regime. I believe it's required. The regulations must be reasonable and meet the aims and objectives of what the Firearms Act is meant to accomplish. The average Canadian does not know how strict our firearms laws are. There is a lot of misinformation and incorrect information floating around. I believe that all levels of government have a responsibility to ensure that accurate information is passed on to Canadians without bias and that their decisions on laws, regulations and policies are based on hard facts, supportable statistics and credible research data—academic and technical—and not on emotion.

Many Canadians don't agree that a firearms ban on legally owned firearms and/or tighter gun control laws will reduce violent crimes with illegal guns. They believe that there is a great need to address the root causes that contribute to violent crime: poverty, homelessness, lack of job opportunities and lack of mental health supports. These root causes must be addressed if a significant impact on reducing violent crime is to be achieved.

We have heard many politicians say they are not targeting licensed firearm owners and that sport shooters can continue to enjoy their sport. It is a fallacy to believe that Bill C-21 and its freeze on handguns will not affect handgun sport shooters.

Many sport shooting disciplines will cease to exist, as no new members can join. Levels of competition will dwindle. Provincial and national championships will not be organized due to the ever-decreasing competitor base. Without higher-level competition, we won't be able to compete at the world level. As sport shooting ceases to exist, fewer people will be exposed to sport shooting and fewer people will be interested in becoming Olympic shooters. Sport shooting disciplines such as IPSC are feeder sports to the Olympics. You don't become an Olympic shooter just by asking the Canadian Olympic Committee.

Shooting ranges are supported by handgun owners and sport shooting disciplines through competitions. The reason for the existence of ranges is primarily due to handgun shooters, as these are the only locations where they can practice their sport. The membership in the sport will dwindle, so the membership in the ranges will dwindle. The ranges will lose major revenue and will eventually have to close. Many municipal, provincial and federal police services rent civilian ranges to conduct their basic and advanced firearms qualifications. It is far less expensive for law enforcement to rent civilian ranges than to maintain their own range facilities. This will be an increasing cost to police services for municipalities.

When a handgun owner dies, their legally acquired property must be handed over to law enforcement or to the government without any compensation being provided to the family. This is deferred confiscation. Many families will lose thousands to tens of thousands of dollars when these handguns are confiscated. This is unacceptable. Many families pay the price—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Excuse me, sir. Could you wrap up quickly?

[LCol (Ret'd) John Schneiderbanger]

I absolutely will, sir.

They pay the price for crime committed by others. The focus on legal handgun ownership as a way to reduce violent crimes with guns is misguided. Legally owned firearms are not the cause of increasing violent crime; gangs, drug dealers and smugglers use illegal guns and are the problem.

Finally, I am proud to represent Canada at the world level in IPSC. IPSC is an official member of the Global Association of International Sports Federations and the Alliance of Independent Recognised Members of Sports, AIMS. AIMS is recognized by the International Olympic Committee and has signed a memorandum of understanding with the IOC.

I ask that consideration be given to IPSC being added as a sport shooting discipline as part of the exemption to Bill C-21in proposed paragraph 97.1(b).

I welcome any questions that you may have. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

We will go now to Ms. Saretsky with the Alberta Mounted Shooters Association.

You have five minutes, please.

[Julie Saretsky, President, Alberta Mounted Shooters Association]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and committee members. My name is Julie Saretsky, and I am the current president of the Alberta Mounted Shooters Association.

I'm here to speak to you about amending Bill C-21 to include the sport of mounted shooting under the elite sports shooter classification or to receive an approved status, similar to the film and television industry, that would allow us to continue to grow and develop our athletes. The recent implementation of the rule that prohibits the sale, transfer or purchase of restricted handguns in Canada has a detrimental effect on the continuation and growth of our sport.

For those of you unfamiliar with the sport, mounted shooting combines target shooting and horsemanship. A team, consisting of a horse and rider, navigates a course of targets against the timer clock. The rider carries two 45-calibre single-action revolvers loaded with black powder blanks that have a maximum distance of 20 feet or six metres. Please note there are no projectiles or bullets, thereby making it a spectator-friendly sport. Our horses are highly trained athletes, and our riders exhibit exceptional riding and gun-handling skills.

Mounted shooting is a family-oriented, multi-generational sport consisting of athletes ranging in age from seven to 77. Many families travel and compete together throughout the year. One example of the family cohesiveness this sport provides is the Litvak family from Stettler, Alberta. The grandparents, Don and Cathy, compete along with their kids and grandchildren on a regular basis.

Children under 18 years of age are called “wranglers” and ride the same pattern as the grown-ups, but mimic the engagement of the targets as if they were shooting real blanks. To help children learn safe gun-handling and sharpshooting skills, along with respect for a firearm, our wranglers ground-shoot, from a stationary position, 10 targets under the direct supervision of a range master and another qualified adult.

Mounted shooting is an important sport that helps youth develop shooting skill sets and proficiencies that help them transition to Olympic and Paralympic shooting events, such as biathlon or target shooting. Additionally, the horsemanship skills gained by participating in mounted shooting help riders go on to participate in Olympic and Paralympic disciplines, such as reining, dressage, vaulting and jumping.

In the demographics of mounted shooters across the world, we'll find mounted shooters in Europe, South America, North America, Australia and New Zealand. In Canada, mounted shooters come from B.C., Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec and Nova Scotia.

The sport of mounted shooting is dominated by women, who make up 65% of active competitors. Additionally, 60% of all competitors, male and female, are 50-plus years of age. In terms of occupations, mounted shooters consist of doctors, RCMP officers, veterinarians, college professors, ranchers, farmers, Canadian Armed Forces personnel, business owners, nurses, corporate executives, city police officers, government employees, mothers, fathers and students, to name a few.

Mounted shooters tend to live in suburban and rural communities. Many mounted shooting events take place in more rural areas. These events are important and contribute to the local economies where these competitions are located. A few examples of competition locations in rural areas are Creston, B.C.; Stavely, Alberta; Carrot River, Saskatchewan; Miami, Manitoba; Blue Mountains, Ontario; and Little Bras d'Or, Nova Scotia.

On the other side of the fence, we compete in, or are invited to demonstrate, mounted shooting at events such as the Calgary Stampede; the Ponoka Stampede; the Agribition in Regina, Saskatchewan; and the Selkirk rodeo.

We help local youth groups raise money for their activities by offering them a paid role in running part of our shooting competitions.

Canada is well represented on the world stage. Since Canadians started competing in mounted shooting in 2004, we have produced many world champions and reserve world champions. Each year, an average of 15 to 20 Canadian competitors attend the world championships.

We are a very safety-conscious group. Before we can become mounted shooters, we must complete training, testing and background checks to obtain our restricted gun licences. At our competitions, safety meetings are conducted at the start of each competition day, and a range master is in the arena at all times to ensure that safe riding and shooting are exercised.

We are a passionate group of competitors who value our community, and we refer to our community as our shooting family.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Excuse me; could you wrap up soon?

[Julie Saretsky]

Yes.

We want to continue our sport with more Canadians. We want to grow and develop skilled target shooters and equestrians. We want the ability to continue the legacy for our youth and produce more world champions.

Again we ask that mounted shooting be part of the exempt parties listed in Bill C-21. There are many shooting sports that should be given recognition and exemption from Bill C-21, not just Olympic and Paralympic sports. Perhaps strong consideration should be given to turning the approval process over to the provincial chief firearms officers, as they're most closely in touch with the competitors and the legitimacy of shooting sports within their provinces.

In closing, eradicating our sport and letting it die with the current legislation won't have any impact on crime. It just makes mounted shooting and law-abiding citizens collateral damage. It takes away from a sport that encourages family involvement and community spirit.

Thank you for your consideration.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

We'll go now to Dr. Cukier, president of the Coalition for Gun Control.

You have five minutes, please.

[Dr. Wendy Cukier, President, Coalition for Gun Control]

Thanks very much for including me. I'm joining you from the traditional territory of the Mississaugas of the Credit, Anishinabe, Haudenosaunee, Chippewa, and Wendat peoples.

I want to start by thanking you for rescheduling me and allowing me to speak. I will follow up with a written brief.

There are a few things I think are important to mention. The Coalition for Gun Control represents 200 organizations, including the Canadian Public Health Association, as well as community organizations, groups like the Canadian Labour Congress, victims organizations and more than 75 women's groups.

Our focus is public safety. Seventy per cent of Canadians support a complete ban on handguns and have for 30 years. In our view, this law is very important in addressing the issues of public safety that have been raised by experts as well as in translating the will of Canadians into action.

We've heard a lot about the cost to sport shooters and the cost to the gun industry. I'd like to remind the committee that the last analysis done of gun death and injury in Canada estimated the annual cost at $6.6 billion, in an article published in the Canadian Medical Association Journal.

We support the provisions that strengthen licensing. We think some of the provisions, however, need to be reconsidered. If the government is responsible for issuing licences, the government should be responsible for removing licences and expecting citizens to go to court for emergency revocations. I think that's misdirected. We need to strengthen the responsiveness of the government and firearms officers to exercise their obligation to remove firearms from people who, in their opinion, are a threat to themselves or any other person. It's important that we recognize the legislation's role in suicide prevention, not just in preventing domestic violence, mass shootings and murders of police officers.

The second area in which we think the legislation could be strengthened is with respect to the ban on semi-automatic military-style weapons. We think that a definition should be included to make very clear the evergreen requirements for this legislation. We know from the 1995 orders in council that gun manufacturers will circumvent any lists that are provided, so it's important to have a clear definition, perhaps like those in the California laws, in the legislation along with the OIC.

We actually oppose anything other than a very narrow exemption to the ban on the sale and transfer of handguns. Again, the proliferation of handguns in the last 15 years has seen more than double the number of restricted weapons legally owned in Canada. We've seen a dramatic rise in gun-related death and injury. It's simply not true that all gun violence is a function of smuggled guns; the facts do not support that.

Finally, I would invite members of the committee to take a really close look at what sport groups like the International Practical Shooting Confederation do. While active members of the armed forces and police officers need to be able to undertake defensive shooting and to perhaps shoot at targets shaped like people in scenarios as part of their training, there's no need in Canada for civilians to be involved in such activities, and they are very much at odds with Canadian values and culture.

In closing, there is ample evidence in the peer-reviewed research from around the world that stronger restrictions on guns save lives. Canada, the U.K. and Australia have the same rates of murder without guns. They have problems with poverty. They have problems with drug abuse. Last year, the United Kingdom had fewer than 30 gun murders and Australia had one-fifth the number we had in Canada. It's very clear that restricting access to firearms has an impact on the misuse of guns as well as on the diversion of legal guns to illegal markets. Those things are worth sacrificing people's hobbies for.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

We will now start our questioning. The first round will start with Mr. Lloyd.

Mr. Lloyd, please go ahead for six minutes.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is for the Alberta Mounted Shooters Association.

Would you agree that not all handguns are the same?

[Julie Saretsky]

That is correct.

We use a single-action handgun that is simple technology—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

You use a semi-automatic handgun. Is that correct?

[Julie Saretsky]

No, we do not. We use a single-action firearm. We have to pull the trigger back. It is simple technology designed in the 1890s.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Would I be correct in saying that if an exemption were made so that Bill C-21 only applied to semi-automatic handguns, your sport would be allowed to continue and thrive?

[Julie Saretsky]

That's correct.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you.

My next question is for Lieutenant-Colonel Schneiderbanger.

As a veteran, how important was it for you, when you left the forces, to be able to participate in sport shooting?

[LCol (Ret'd) John Schneiderbanger]

It gave me an opportunity to remain connected with other veterans and current members of the armed forces, because many of them do take part in these sports.

It's a great outdoor sport. It gave me the ability to challenge myself physically and keep myself mentally fit as well. I found it very important. I took up the sport immediately upon retirement, actually, which was 12 years ago.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Do you think that denying veterans, who will not be exempted under Bill C-21, the ability to participate in this kind of sport shooting will have a negative impact on their well-being?

[LCol (Ret'd) John Schneiderbanger]

Yes, I do. They have skills that they can immediately use in a sport activity, which is healthy. It's a very safe sport. It's highly regulated. IPSC is an example. I'll speak to that. It's highly regulated and it keeps veterans actively fit and mentally fit.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Do you think it makes any sense for legislation like Bill C-21 that you can have a military member, a veteran or a law enforcement member who is mandated to use a handgun for their job day to day, but under this legislation will not be allowed to purchase, own or transfer a handgun personally?

[LCol (Ret'd) John Schneiderbanger]

I have a hard time with that. Yes, I think it doesn't make much sense. If you can't rely on veterans or former military members to be safe, responsible and law-abiding members, then I think we have a bigger problem.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

We know that handgun owners, as a condition of their licence, must be a paying member of a certified firearms range. Has this requirement been critical to the sustainability of gun ranges in Canada?

[LCol (Ret'd) John Schneiderbanger]

Yes. The reason for the existence of most ranges is the fact that handgun shooters can only shoot at the ranges. The vast membership of these ranges are handgun shooters, and therefore it's those sport disciplines that use handguns.

There are many many sport disciplines, including the International Defensive Pistol Association, 3-gun, cowboy action, mounted cowboy and IPSC. That's just to name a few.