Evidence of meeting #41 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sport.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Lieutenant-Colonel  Retired) John Schneiderbanger (As an Individual
Julie Saretsky  President, Alberta Mounted Shooters Association
Wendy Cukier  President, Coalition for Gun Control
Lynda Kiejko  Civil Engineer, Olympian, As an Individual
James Smith  President of the National Range Officers Institute, International Practical Shooting Confederation
Medha Russell  Athlete, Instructor and Official, International Practical Shooting Confederation

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

Yes.

Do you believe that this legislation would lead to a mass closure of firearms ranges across this country?

4:05 p.m.

LCol (Ret'd) John Schneiderbanger

I absolutely do foresee that.

It will have an unintended consequence in that law enforcement—that's Canada Border Services, conservation officers and police officers—will have to have their own firing ranges, which will be very costly for the municipalities.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

You're saying that law enforcement members across this country, with a few exceptions, currently need to use these private ranges in order to practice marksmanship, so that they can be good upholders of public safety.

4:05 p.m.

LCol (Ret'd) John Schneiderbanger

Absolutely.

We see them here all the time at my local range. RCMP, border services and conservation officers are here, along with my own municipal police services. I actually have given a lot of shooting advice to many of those officers on our range.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

Are these officers required to get an authorization to transport when they are going to the range to shoot, or are they exempted from having to apply for that because it's part of their job? Are you aware of that?

4:05 p.m.

LCol (Ret'd) John Schneiderbanger

It depends on the firearm they are using. If they are using their service firearm, they don't need an ATT, because according to the act, it's not required. If it's their personal handgun, they do need an ATT.

If it was their personal handgun, they would have gone through all the courses and so forth and applied for a PAL and a restricted PAL.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

Thank you.

Do you think this legislation will have a negative impact on promoting a culture of responsible firearms ownership and safety in Canada?

4:05 p.m.

LCol (Ret'd) John Schneiderbanger

On ownership, I think the majority of these sports disciplines have national or world bodies, and they're regulated—highly regulated. At IPSC, we have the National Range Officers Institute, which is recognized by the national institute of range association. They stipulate all of the requirements of safety worldwide.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

You have 10 seconds left.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

Thank you. I'll give it to the committee.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, Mr. Lloyd.

We'll now go to Mr. Chiang. You have six minutes, please.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Chiang Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for joining us today and for giving their precious time to this committee.

My question is directed to Dr. Cukier.

In 2020, there were approximately 1.1 million registered handguns in Canada, a 74% increase since 2010. Why do you believe that minimizing the number of handguns in Canada will help to reduce firearm violence and keep Canadians safe?

4:05 p.m.

President, Coalition for Gun Control

Dr. Wendy Cukier

Thank you for the question.

We know that while smuggled guns are a problem and more work is needed to address that—we have recommendations on that as well—a portion of firearms recovered in crime are legally sourced. The Danforth shooting was a legal handgun and the mosque shooting was done by a legal gun owner with legal handguns.

In fact, most mass shootings in Canada over the last 20 years have been done with legal guns by legal owners or with guns that were diverted through legal owners to illegal sources, as in the murders in Mayerthorpe.

It's important, in our view, to respect the views of Canadians. Only about 300,000 gun owners in Canada have restricted weapons. There are lots of hunters and farmers who support a ban on handguns. There is a big difference between firearms that are reasonably used for hunting and those that are used for other sport.

I think it's important that we draw a line. The fact that handgun imports doubled in the first six months of this year when the ban was announced tells you something about the drivers for this.

We've seen a dramatic increase of handgun violence in rural communities. While a lot of attention is focused on urban communities, with the proliferation of handguns, we've seen more handgun violence in rural communities.

There are big questions around why people are owning handguns. Many are not sport shooters, and we really need to turn off the tap.

October 25th, 2022 / 4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Chiang Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

According to Statistics Canada, “one in four...female victims of firearm-related violent crime was victimized by a current or former spouse or other intimate partner.”

How do you believe that newly proposed red and yellow flag laws, which will remove firearms from homes where owners pose a risk to themselves or others, will help keep women safer from firearm violence? Are there any changes to this legislation that you would like to see to more effectively support victims of firearm-related intimate partner violence?

4:10 p.m.

President, Coalition for Gun Control

Dr. Wendy Cukier

Thank you for the question.

Intimate partner violence is something that we really need to look at carefully, because it is a form of violence that is far more frequent in rural communities, where there are more guns in people's homes, just as we see more suicide in rural communities and murders of police officers.

The provisions in the legislation, which deal with restricting and removing firearms from people who have offences or protection orders against them, are all good moves. There are some nuances that we'll write about that some of the women's organizations have proposed. Remember that the law allows for a firearms officer to refuse a licence or remove firearms from anyone who is considered a threat to themselves or any other person, and the risks associated with domestic violence, suicide and mass shootings are all interrelated. It's very important that those provisions be understood as being broad and that the firearms officers be obligated to remove firearms when there is risk. This is partly legislative, but it's also partly implementation of the law.

However well-intentioned, the pieces of the legislation that we have concerns about are the provisions that require citizens to go to court for emergency prohibition orders. Our view is that it's the responsibility of the state. That's the responsibility of police. We would prefer to see a hotline that is served, serviced and acted upon in short order when concerns are brought forward.

We know from the Desmond inquiry in Nova Scotia, for example, that people raised concerns about the killer, who was a veteran and had access to firearms, but no action was taken. We've seen way too many inquiries and inquests that showed that people had information that someone was potentially a threat to themselves or someone else, yet action was not taken. We need to really tighten up not just the legislation but also the implementation of the legislation and the accountability that police and firearms officers have for keeping us safe.

Thank you for the question.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Chiang Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Thank you, Dr. Cukier.

We have been hearing from many organizations related to sport shooting and airsoft sports. In your view, what exemptions should be given to the national freeze on handguns for these groups and organizations? What would be viable?

4:10 p.m.

President, Coalition for Gun Control

Dr. Wendy Cukier

I think that we have to make a choice between hobbies and our children's lives. I see it that starkly, so I think that any exemptions that are provided need to be very narrowly defined.

With respect to the Lieutenant-Colonel, IPSC is not a sport that most Canadians and in fact most gun owners would believe deserves an exemption, given that it essentially promotes arming for self-protection.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, Mr. Chiang.

I'll now give the floor to Ms. Michaud for six minutes.

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being with us.

I'm going to pick up where you left off and continue with Dr. Cukier from the Coalition for Gun Control.

You say that if there are some exemptions, they need to be well defined or better defined. I quite agree with you that if we start exempting just about every group that asks for it, we compromise the very essence of the national freeze on handguns.

I'm wondering how you interpret Bill C‑21 as currently worded. The bill provides exceptions for high‑level shooters, such as at the Paralympic or Olympic level, and their coaches. However, it seems unclear who would be exempt from the national freeze at this point.

4:15 p.m.

President, Coalition for Gun Control

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

What I asked the officials from the Department of Public Safety about this a few weeks ago, they themselves didn't seem to know what that meant. It seemed hazy.

So I'd like to know your interpretation of the current wording of the bill on this point.

4:15 p.m.

President, Coalition for Gun Control

Dr. Wendy Cukier

I think it's going to be very difficult. I think that some narrow exemptions for Olympic shooters could be entertained. Certainly Germany, which has very strict gun control laws, does have some provisions for sport shooters.

I may be training for the Olympic gymnastics team, and I can tell you that, but how can I prove that I am an Olympic-class gymnast? I think those are the kinds of questions that are really going to have to be clarified in the application of this legislation. While I understand the arguments that people make that they're going to lose the feeders to our sport, again I'll come back to my basic point, which is that most Canadians want a ban on handguns and that we have to choose public safety over people's hobbies.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

I also have a question about the freeze on handguns. Again, there seems to be a bit of a grey area. The government would leave it up to the provinces to write and send letters to the shooting clubs to let them know that this or that person is exempt. That would give the provinces a lot of leeway. While this is already how it works for shooting clubs in Quebec, some provinces have already indicated their intention to challenge Bill C‑21 or the various gun control regulations it would implement.

The federal government is implementing a national freeze on handguns that is ultimately not so national, because some provinces may decide to do things differently. In addition, the Prime Minister stated that the handgun freeze applies now, immediately. However, on the government's website, in the Canada Gazette, it says that the freeze won't be in effect until November 9.

What message do you think that sends?

4:15 p.m.

President, Coalition for Gun Control

Dr. Wendy Cukier

Thank you very much, again, for the question.

I do think that the federal government has to be very careful that it's not seen to be downloading its responsibilities onto the province. We opposed—as did the mayors of large municipalities across the country—the efforts to download the handgun ban to municipalities. We opposed the efforts to download it to the provinces.

You raise a very important point that needs to be addressed. We have to ensure that the exemptions don't become the rule. We know that some provinces are very opposed to stronger laws, and they will exempt everybody. It's critically important that the guidelines be very precise and explicit about who can and cannot be exempted. Minimal discretion should be allowed to the provinces.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

I have one last question, and it's about assault weapons.

You know as well as I do that the May 2020 order didn't ban all military‑style assault weapons. Retailers can circumvent these regulations by bringing new weapons to market, for example.

When the government introduced its Bill C‑21, it promised that it would amend its own bill to include a section banning all assault weapons.

Do you think the government will keep its promise and make that amendment to Bill C‑21?