Public Safety Committee on Oct. 25th, 2022

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you very much.

The reason I ask is that certainly those I knew who engaged in sport shooting when I was growing up were often from hunting families. They were often ranchers and cowboys. It certainly is strongly part of the culture, I would say, in western Canada and rural Canada, which is where I'm from as well.

So often since I've come to Ottawa I've felt that some in Ottawa and some powerful people in the east and in certain political parties look down their noses at folks like us with our background. It seems to be a constant battle for legitimacy. Our culture has every right to exist, and western Canada has a firearm culture that hunts, to say nothing of the indigenous culture of hunting and sport shooting in their own right, which dates back far longer, of course, than my family has been in Canada.

I certainly feel that this culture is under consistent attack from the current administration, from the Liberal government. Can you comment on your thoughts on that? Do you feel the same? Are you constantly having to justify the existence of the culture you engage in on a day-to-day basis?

[Julie Saretsky]

Yes. It depends on the part of the country, whether I'm in the city or it's rural. If I'm travelling and I get talking to somebody about what I do and I say I'm a mounted shooter, they ask what that is, so I explain that I shoot balloon targets off a moving horse with black powder blanks. There's not even a projectile. Depending on what part of the country I'm in, they may say, “My gosh, it's a firearm” and such, but when I start to explain to people that we're shooting blanks and that the firearms are single-action, just like in the John Wayne movies....

In my own family, until my mother saw the sport in person, she didn't change her mind. She had a preconceived notion that what we were doing wasn't necessarily correct, so until she saw it in person, she thought it was—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I'm sorry. I'm going to have to cut you off there.

[Julie Saretsky]

—something nefarious.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you very much for your remarks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

We go now to Mr. Van Bynen, please, for five minutes.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I also want to thank all our witnesses for adding their perspectives to this issue. There is much to be learned, and I'm eager to hear all the different perspectives.

I do want to clarify, though, that the national freeze on handguns came into force via the regulatory amendments to the Firearms Act on approval by the Governor General and registration on October 21, 2022, and that the regulations have been in force since then.

The text of the regulations will be published in the Canada Gazette on November 9. This is just a publication date, as the regulations are already in force. Until then, they are temporarily posted, for ease of reference, on the government's website.

I'd like to direct my questions to Dr. Cukier.

There have been some concerns raised with respect to the red- and yellow-flag items. I want to emphasize the context that these are in addition to existing regulations. I appreciate that much work needs to be done in the responsiveness, as you highlighted earlier, but as a supplemental or an additional avenue for people who feel like they are at risk of violence, would there be any additional amendments you would make to reflect that context in the legislation?

[Dr. Wendy Cukier]

I do think the context is important, because there is a risk that these will be viewed as an alternative, and instead of the police responding in a timely fashion to concerns, people will be directed to the courts, so we're still working on proposed amendments.

Some people, as you know, are simply recommending striking those provisions entirely. There may be some merit to that idea. To be perfectly honest, we're trying to figure out how to navigate the different views of organizations like the Canadian Association of Emergency Physicians. I'm inclining towards their position, but there may be a way to retain some measures with the appropriate context.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you.

Could you describe for the committee some of your research in relation to the correlation between firearms legislation and suicide rates, and do you believe that gun control is an effective suicide prevention tool?

[Dr. Wendy Cukier]

Yes. I co-authored a book called The Global Gun Epidemic with Vic Sidel, who is past president of the American Public Health Association. What it shows is that among industrialized countries, on a global basis, there is a very strong relationship between the availability of firearms, suicide with firearms and overall suicide. You can see that it's particularly pronounced even within Canada when you look at differences between, for example, urban centres, rural centres, the east and the west, and I have to say, with respect, that recent studies on suicide by military veterans do mention the availability of firearms being a factor that needs to be addressed.

The availability of lethal means is associated with what we call suicide completions, which means 93% of suicides attempted with a firearm will result in death, versus attempts by other means. I think the evidence is pretty unequivocal that the availability of firearms is associated with suicide rates and that legislation that reduces the availability of firearms to people who are at risk to themselves or others is associated with reductions in suicide.

If we look at Canada's track record, we see that after Bill C-68, we were on a trajectory that was very comparable to what we saw in Australia. Then when the laws were relaxed, we saw that trend reversed.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

You mentioned earlier that there should be a very narrow definition of the weapons that are permitted, specifically with reference to semi-automatic and other items. Having said that, do you believe that the IPSC or the mounted shooters should be exempted in this law?

[Dr. Wendy Cukier]

Certainly IPSC should not be. I'm not familiar with the mounted shooters, but our position is for a very narrow definition restricted to Olympic shooting, with requirements that people demonstrate that they're actually legitimate, and that requires some work.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Okay. Now you mentioned earlier—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Van Bynen.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Ms. Michaud now has the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank my colleague Mr. Van Bynen for clarifying the issue of the publication in the Canada Gazette. That's not the information I had as of yesterday. Now we're on the same page.

I'll now turn to Ms. Saretsky.

I hear your concerns about Bill C‑21 and the national freeze on handguns, as well as your concerns about your sport.

However, are there elements of Bill C‑21 that you welcome? We don't just have to think about the increase in minimum sentences for smuggling or trafficking in firearms, or about revoking or suspending the firearms licence of a person suspected of committing wrongdoing, for example. There are a number of elements that seem to be welcomed by several groups.

I'd like you to talk about these elements. Do you find that there are still good things in Bill C‑21?

[Julie Saretsky]

I feel that if somebody is a danger to society or is a proven danger to society, and possibly suspected of being a danger to themselves or to the public, we should be able to flag that individual.

For us, we are most concerned that our single-action firearms not be included under that definition of a restricted weapon that we would not be able to use. Although there are positive aspects of Bill C-21 and we would like to ensure that nobody gets hurt, we really are looking to having our heritage considered and so on.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I understand. In fact, several groups have similar concerns.

We often hear the argument made that Bill C‑21 won't address the problem of illegal arms trafficking, for example, when illegal guns are involved in the majority of shootings. This is true in part for the majority of shootings. However, we must also be aware that, in the past, terrible crimes were committed by people who had legal weapons and valid firearms licences. These practices need to be better regulated.

As for the sport, there's no doubt that enthusiasts use devices that are still dangerous—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Could you wrap up quickly, please?

I'll give the witness about 20 seconds to respond.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Actually, my question is too long, so I will stop here.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

Mr. MacGregor, please go ahead. You have two and a half minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll turn to Lieutenant-Colonel Schneiderbanger.

Sir, you've heard the testimony, and we have verifiable evidence that having firearms in the home of someone contemplating suicide most often leads to the successful completion of it. I'm not sure, though, that enough has been talked about. As a community that's involved in the shooting disciplines, you must have experienced some times when someone you know was having a down day.

Does your community check in with one another? Are you doing wellness checks? Are you often having those meetings to ensure that everyone is not having a bad day?

As you know, everyone there is a licensed firearms owner. Can you inform our committee about that?

[LCol (Ret'd) John Schneiderbanger]

Thank you for the question.

I can give you a personal anecdote. We had one gentleman who was rather old, and we noted that he was acting oddly. We immediately had him stop shooting. We started talking to him to find out what was going on, and guess what? We determined that he had the onset of, potentially, dementia. That's an example. He no longer shoots. We informed his family and so forth, and appropriate action was taken.

Most certainly, there's a lot of camaraderie in our sport, and we all want to remain safe.

By the way, we do not shoot at targets that represent human beings whatsoever. It is not the purpose of the IPSC to be training for defence using a pistol. It would be contrary to everything we do in this sport.

Absolutely, we check on our membership.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

My final question is to Ms. Saretsky. In your opening statement, you said that you would like an exemption like the one that is allowed for the film industry. In about 30 seconds, can you expand a bit more on that, please?