Public Safety Committee on Oct. 27th, 2022

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Wall and Mr. Gélinas, for sharing your expertise in criminal matters.

I have several questions for both of you.

Since 2015, there has been a 32% increase in the number of violent crimes across Canada. We know that most of the firearms used to commit these crimes are illegal.

My questions are as follows.

First, could Bill C‑21 really do anything about the increase in the number of violent crimes in our communities?

Second, what measures would really be effective in countering the rise in violent crime?

[André Gélinas]

I will answer your question, if I may.

You are absolutely correct. In fact, Bill C‑21 will do absolutely nothing, because, as my colleague Mr. Wall mentioned, the number of handguns from Canada is really too small compared with what is coming over the border. It's a disproportionate number.

The solutions are clear. We need to concentrate on the border and certain territories, in particular Akwesasne, where Canadian police services cannot intervene. They are not authorized to enter. That is where many of the firearms are coming from.

Experience has shown that illegal handguns are very present in cities like Montreal and Toronto. Geographically speaking, the Akwesasne reserve covers territory in Quebec and Ontario, as well as the United States, which is considered the main firearms producer in the world. Obviously, we will always have to deal with this, since the Canada-U.S. border is the longest land border in the world, and it is not guarded. Obviously, we can't do anything in the U.S. In other words, we can't get them to legislate to resolve their firearms problems.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

You mentioned that 90% of all illegally procured firearms come from the United States. How are seized illegal firearms and ghost guns traced?

[André Gélinas]

Technically speaking, when a firearm seized by the police bears a serial number, it takes 15 seconds to find out whether it came from Canada. In Canada, handguns have been registered since the 1930s. If the firearm is not registered in Canada, we can contact our U.S. partners and give them the serial number. That number may give us the name of the person who purchased the firearm from an authorized retailer in the U.S., i.e. a firearms retailer with an American federal licence. That is how we get the information we're looking for. In that case, we know for certain that the firearm came from the United States.

The problem is that no offence was committed in the United States. The person acquires the firearm legally and, under U.S. law, can sell it to anyone without a background check.

When we seize ghost guns, there is obviously no serial number. However, by examining its frame, we can determine whether the ghost gun came from the United States. The frame is the grip, and, under the law, that is what constitutes the firearm. Most ghost guns have a Polymer80 frame. This American manufacturer operates legally in the U.S., but it's illegal to sell its products in Canada. So when we find a ghost gun with a Polymer80 frame, we can be certain it came from the United States.

Once again, it's a way of determining virtually for certain that the vast majority of firearms come from the U.S.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Bill C‑5, introduced by the Liberals, eliminates mandatory prison sentences for violent gun crimes and allows these criminals to be put under house arrest in our communities.

What impact do policies like the ones in Bill C‑5 have on the safety of Canadian communities? Do they contribute to the increase in violent crimes?

[André Gélinas]

Bill C‑5 undermines our judicial system and boosts the arrogance of criminal groups. Criminals study their surroundings and get advice from their lawyers. So, when they're told that there are no more mandatory minimum penalties, there are no longer any deterrents.

The other element in this regard is that criminals look at what is going on around them. When I tell you that they study their surroundings, I mean that they look at Bill C‑21 and realize that the government is targeting people with licences who, in the vast majority of cases, are not a problem. The message this sends to criminals is that the government is not focusing on the real problem. It's abolishing minimum mandatory penalties and continues to intervene in areas where there appear to be no problems at all.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Mr. Schiefke for six minutes, please.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Gélinas and Mr. Wall, I would like to start by thanking you for the work you do to protect our families and communities.

I would like to talk about ghost guns. As you know, there has been a proliferation of ghost guns because of 3D printers and access to firearm components online. We are looking for solutions to this problem, whether via Bill C‑21 or regulations.

Mr. Gélinas and Mr. Wall, would you be in favour of measures to regulate the possession, sale and importation of firearm components, such as barrels and slides, which are used to make ghost guns?

[André Gélinas]

Absolutely.

It is absurd that, today, a person with a little technical skill can print a 3D firearm frame, or procure one illegally, and that they can also purchase a barrel, a slide, magazines and a trigger, all of the peripheral components needed to make a gun with a 3D‑printed frame.

If we really want to do something concrete, we at least need to require Canadian retailers to verify that anyone who wants to procure firearm components has a licence to possess and acquire firearms. No sport shooters or hunters would be averse to such a measure, since it is merely common sense. It's unacceptable that anyone who does not have a licence to acquire firearms and is neither a hunter or a sport shooter can procure magazines and firearm components. It makes no sense. It's so obvious, that we wonder why it hasn't been done yet.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Gélinas.

Would you also agree with this type of measure, Mr. Wall?

[Stéphane Wall]

Yes.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I have another question. This being said, I think that Mr. Gélinas has already answered it.

Would you also be in favour of a regulation that would specify the number of firearm components an authorized owner could import and that would limit the possibility of purchasing firearm components to licence holders?

[Stéphane Wall]

My answer is the same as the one Mr. Gélinas just gave you.

Effectively, that's crucial. Any bill would absolutely have to address this issue. We can't get around it. Possessing a firearms licence brings with it certain privileges. If we pretend that the problem doesn't exist and we don't do anything to fix the situation, we will have missed the point.

So my answer is yes.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I would also like to broach the topic of compressed air guns.

Many experts and police officers across the country have requested a ban on the sale of compressed air guns, since they look too much like real firearms. This proposition is not popular among compressed air gun users, of whom there are many in the community of Vaudreuil—Soulanges. They would like to find a solution, but they find that a ban goes too far.

Another possible solution would be to regulate compressed air guns the same way firearms are currently regulated.

Would you be in favour of limiting the sale of compressed air guns to people aged 18 and over?

[André Gélinas]

Yes, you're absolutely right. That would be one solution, or at least a start. It's not normal that young adolescents can purchase compressed air guns. Also, police officers often find this type of weapon in the hands of street gang members, who use them precisely because they look like real firearms. As others have said before me, this confusion can also cause a police officer to shoot.

That being said, age should be a criterion. I would even say that I wouldn't be against making adults who use compressed air guns get a firearms licence. That would allow...

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

You've just answered my next question, Mr. Gélinas, thank you for that.

What do you think, Mr. Wall?

[Stéphane Wall]

I, too, am in complete agreement. I'm going to continue where Mr. Gélinas left off.

I was a station supervisor and patrol officer for a long time. We did indeed receive calls and arrested people who had in their possession an airgun that was a replica firearm. This can certainly be a source of confusion for patrol officers. Even though there haven't been many cases of police officers having to neutralize an individual holding an airgun, it has happened in the past. We absolutely have to avoid this type of situation.

A sixteen-year-old kid who with an airgun tucked into his belt could simply want to get rid of it in front of police officers, without necessarily threatening anyone. But police officers analyze a situation in a matter of seconds, and if the firearm looks real, tragic accidents can occur. It has happened a few times in Canada. Such situations must be avoided.

Earlier on, someone spoke about the possibility of changing the way these firearms are manufactured so that they do not resemble real firearms. The manufacturing process would have to be completely overhauled. Even if we put colours on the replica guns or toys, a young person could simply paint the thing black, for example. We need much stricter measures.

We could also think about making parents aware of certain conditions that their children should abide by when they use airguns. That would be another step in the right direction.

[Peter Schiefke, Liberal, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Schiefke.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for agreeing to come and testify today before the committee. We are grateful for your expertise. Both your positions on this issue are clear and pretty similar. You're saying that Bill C‑21 will not help with the problem of illegal firearms trafficking, and I pretty much agree with you.

Mr. Wall, you suggested other solutions that, in my opinion, would not necessarily require legislative amendments and could be put into place in a parallel fashion, such as investing more money and sending more resources to the border.

Mr. Gélinas, you mentioned that certain clauses contained in the bill were ineffectual, such as those that pertain to altered cartridge magazines and increased maximum sentences. I would like to know which clauses contained in Bill C‑21 you support or find truly useful, but I get the impression that your answer will be rather short.

To help you along, I should inform you that I'm going to submit an amendment to the committee once we start the clause-by-clause study of the bill, with the aim of adding a clear definition of assault-style military guns to the Criminal Code. Because of the way the government proceeded when it published the amnesty order prohibiting 1,500 models of firearms, these firearms are still on the market, including the SKS carbine, a model that was used recently to kill police officers.

Do you think that we could strengthen Bill C‑21 by including clauses on assault-style guns or on ghost guns and tracing, as was suggested earlier? In your opinion, what amendments could be made to the bill that would be necessary and useful?

I would ask Mr. Wall to answer first. Then Mr. Gélinas.

[Stéphane Wall]

I will answer the first part of your question.

Which amendments contained in the bill seem logical to us? I would say that it would be the clauses that give more powers to the border services officers when they look at the files of immigrants who are coming into Canada, whether those persons are coming through Roxham Road or have applied for visas. If some of those persons are implicated in a crime committed in Canada, it would be terrific if the border services officer could quickly access that information when they are processing the file. Those would be logical clauses that could have a beneficial impact in the medium and long term.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

That's interesting. Thank you, I've made a note of that.

Mr. Gélinas, what do you think?

[André Gélinas]

As Mr. Wall has explained, all the clauses that deal with immigration, i.e., those that prevent violent individuals who have used firearms from becoming citizens of our country, are vital. Those are most welcome.

As you have stated, I don't believe that this bill contains much apart from superficial measures based on ideology and emotions. I think that we could do quite a few things, such as reinforcing our resources at the border, as was said earlier. It's a well-known secret that police officers cannot intervene on certain first nations reserves, where the rule of law simply does not apply. Criminals have the luxury of choosing where along the 6,000 to 7,000 kilometre-long border they want to bring illegal goods into Canada. Obviously, there are areas where it's much easier because the police do not have access and are not politically authorized to intervene. Logically, criminals will favour these areas. They will pay members of organized crime syndicates who are on these reserves to make sure that their goods are protected. We can stick our heads in the sand and pretend that the problem doesn't exist, but those guns are coming up through the border via these reserves and are killing and wounding people on the streets of Montreal and Toronto, mainly.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Would you like to add something Mr. Wall?