Public Safety Committee on Oct. 27th, 2022

[Chief Evan Bray]

I would say it is rare.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Are there any cases that you can think of?

[Chief Evan Bray]

There are none that I can think of off the top of my head, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Again, I think criminals will use anything in the commission of an offence that would replicate.... I think about robberies that happen sometimes with simply a barrel of a gun, not a complete firearm, maybe wrapped in a blanket so that the store owner doesn't know what they're facing.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

When you're taking into account risk here, you would say that the kind of firearm I just showed you is of very low to almost no risk.

[Chief Evan Bray]

I don't think I would say that. I mean—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Is it low risk?

[Chief Evan Bray]

What I'm saying is that any firearm presented to someone, if it's used for a robbery, intimidation or threatening, presents a risk to that person.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

That's interesting.

[Chief Evan Bray]

It may not mean they're going to use it to shoot that person, but we have retaliation crime happening all the time where a replica firearm is used in the initial instance and then the follow-up was a real firearm. I think it does pose a form of risk.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

That's interesting. Thank you.

I'll go back to the National Police Federation.

We heard recently that your members need to practise at private ranges in order to maintain proficiency. We also heard that handgun owners' mandatory membership dues are critical to the financial sustainability of these ranges and that they will close if Bill C-21 should pass.

How will the shutting down of these private ranges impact your members' ability to train?

[Brian Sauvé]

It's going to place a greater responsibility on the RCMP to expand their training capacity, and ultimately that's going to put us in the position of asking the RCMP to have government-approved or RCMP-approved training facilities across Canada. There is that component to it versus being able to use the local shooting range.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

This is my final line of questioning.

We've had a number of witnesses on this debate from across the political spectrum who have drawn a lot of concerns about the so-called red flag laws in this legislation. We had a chief of police who suggested that if people go to the court system instead of calling 911, they could be putting themselves in more danger.

Do you think these red flag laws are necessary? Aren't police already responding to victims' calls when firearms are present?

[Brian Sauvé]

Yes, police are responding, and they do take firearm calls very seriously. However, from our membership's perspective, anything that can be done to improve the safety of victims of crime is a good thing.

Now, is using a red flag, yellow flag and green flag the right system? I don't know, but I think it's a great initiative and a great start.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Lloyd.

We'll now go to Mr. Noormohamed.

Mr. Noormohamed, you have six minutes, please.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of you for appearing and, indeed, for all you do in helping to keep Canadians safe.

I'd like to start my questions with Mr. Bray.

Chief Bray, when you were talking, you mentioned concerns related to ghost guns and components. One of the opportunities I think we have in this legislation is to think about how we address component parts, whether they are slide assemblies, trigger assemblies or barrels, and regulate them to make sure that people can't make their own weapons at home. After hearing from the Vancouver Police Department and others, I know this is a major concern. Certainly in my community in the Lower Mainland it is, and I guess it is across the country.

What are your views on what we should be doing to address this in Bill C-21? Do you think we should be spending a bit of time and effort on ensuring that the issue of ghost guns and components, particularly the regulation of components and their importation, is included? What are your views on that?

[Chief Evan Bray]

I think that is an important part of this discussion. Ultimately, we, too, in the Prairies deal with the 3-D printing and manufacturing of firearms. The reality is that people can print the predominate pieces of the firearm. They can order parts of a firearm online, which by themselves as just a part—whether it's a trigger or a different component of the firearm—are not illegal to purchase, and they don't really signal any sort of warning sign if someone brings in those types of things through the mail or through other forms.

The ability to put together a firearm like that is something we're seeing more and more. We've done a couple of fairly large projects here in Saskatchewan, and we've been able to take those types of firearms off the streets. I think they're becoming more and more of an issue, and I absolutely think there is room for us to do some sort of legislative work to restrict the ability for this happen or to regulate the ability where it can.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

What type of restrictions or regulation would make life easier for police who are dealing with this every single day and who are seeing more and more of these ghost guns in the commission of crimes?

[Chief Evan Bray]

I think there's probably a lot, and that would likely need a bit of exploration to understand. I think right now if I order a firing pin out of Germany, there's no tracking of it. There are no requirements for that to be regulated in any way, whereas if I go to buy a firearm, ammunition or something else, in most cases there's a need to produce some sort of licence that shows I can do that.

We had a recent case in Saskatchewan where a person was fairly sophisticated in their ability to produce not only a firearm predominantly made from a 3-D printer, but one that would fire 40 or 50 times while it held the integrity of the firearm. You need it to be able to fire only once for it to be fatal and used in a homicide.

I think if we can somehow work on the importation of parts, and perhaps there are some other things.... I don't know what best practices exist in other countries, but again, it would be an exploratory piece of work to look into that.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Just to confirm, if we were to find ways to include the possession, sale and importation of the types of parts used to manufacture ghost guns, you would be supportive.

[Chief Evan Bray]

I would be very supportive.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

That's fantastic.

I want to turn now, with the limited time I have, to something you mentioned earlier, which was this whole question of replica firearms, like airsoft guns, that are made to look like real weapons.

One of the questions that I and others on this committee asked industry was to think about ways to make sure their weapons or toy guns—whatever you want to call them—don't get people shot and don't make law enforcement have to react as though they are live-round weapons that can kill people.

How important is it for you in policing to make sure that toys that look like real guns are off the streets? What would you say to the industry when they are manufacturing these types of things that end up getting people killed? What would you say the industry should do to save itself from being shut down?

[Chief Evan Bray]

I've had meetings and direct conversations with people in that industry on an international basis. The reality is that even if a gun looks like a toy gun and has the orange cap on the end of it or is a completely different colour, or looks like a nerf gun, there are ways it can be converted to be real. There's no perfect solution to this, as I understand.

For example, when a gun that looks exactly like a Glock, which is the gun we carry at the Regina Police Service, is brought out and used in the commission of an offence, most of the time even police officers, in the heat of the moment, can't determine whether the firearm is real or not. It does pose an absolute threat. Oftentimes victims who are facing the barrel of one of these replica firearms have the reaction that it's real.

As I mentioned earlier, often what we're seeing are follow-up consequences. There's an initial threat when a house is rushed and some people are robbed, and what is present is a replica firearm. Then a week later we have a homicide because of retaliation that happened as a result of that initial incident. It poses threats at all levels.

I think the more we can stray from having replicas look exactly like a real firearm, the better it would be for community safety.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Noormohamed.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for appearing here today.

Mr. Brochet, thank you for agreeing to testify before the committee today.

In your opening speech, you mentioned that you agreed with certain elements of Bill C‑21, particularly the increase in maximum penalties for arms trafficking. However, you had certain reservations about Bill C‑5, which removes the mandatory minimum penalties for firearm-related crimes. There is however, a link between the two.

I often give the example of William Rainville, whose story you are probably familiar with. This 25‑year‑old Quebecer smuggled almost 250 firearms over the border. He was sentenced to five years in prison, but obtained day parole less than a year later. This shows that arms traffickers are not necessarily hardened criminals or even have a criminal record. It is often their first offence. In my opinion, it is very rare that they receive the maximum penalty or the longest sentence associated with their crime.

In your experience, does it happen often that people are given severe penalties for arms trafficking? Will increasing the maximum penalty really have a positive impact?