Public Safety Committee on Oct. 31st, 2022

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

On April 23, you were part of an email chain, in which SiRT said that the information was to be released only internally. You told the Prime Minister's Office and the minister's office that this was only for internal distribution. Just five days later, you were on a call with your staff and you asked why this information was not included in that available to the public media. During those five days, did you receive any emails or confirmations from SiRT that this information should now be released publicly?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

No. There was no intention to release the details of that information we got. That was very detailed information. There was no intention to release it. All we were looking at, to be proactive, was the number of weapons and the general types of weapons. That's the information we were looking at, and that was the question I was getting asked by media. I personally was curious as to why that was not happening, but—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

The staff on the ground were worried that this could compromise an ongoing investigation. Why would just the number of weapons and the general type of weapons have any impact on the investigation?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

It wouldn't,—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

So then why would your staff be concerned?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

—and it was released.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Well, the specific details were not released until quite some time later.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

No, they were released in the Q and A of that media event.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

That was very general information—

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Yes, and that's all we were looking for.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

—about handguns and assault weapons.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

That's all we were looking for.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

That's all you were looking for.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

It was just the general information: the number of weapons and the general type of weapons. With respect to the details you saw in that email, there was no question that the information was not to be released, and there was even a caveat to that effect.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

In your transcript, you continually talk about the minister's office, but you also talk about the minister. You said you had a request from the minister to have a call. You knew what it was going to be about. What was the call with the minister about?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Well, there were a few requests that had not been completed, for things such as the chronology. I pride myself on giving the correct information. I pride myself on giving information in a timely manner. If I say to you, Mr. Lloyd, that I'm going to give you information tomorrow by four o'clock, I'm expecting to have the information tomorrow by four o'clock. If I don't get you the information by four o'clock, I'm going to phone you up and say, “You know what, I'm sorry, I didn't get you the information.” That's—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

That's the same for when you commit that information is going to be shared publicly at a media release. That is the same thing.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

When the minister's office asked if that information was going to be part of the media event, I had no idea. I'm not controlling the media event. I talk to my comms people. My comms people go to the comms people on the ground. They told me, yes, in fact the general details about the weapons would be included. I tell them it will be included.

In my mind, I'm thinking they're preparing for when they're in front of the media and that they will be able to talk about that once it's released, because until it was released by us, they could not talk about it.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

You were frustrated because you had to do this multiple times with the minister and his office. There were multiple times where information was incorrectly given. As you said, you pride yourself on giving people the correct information, and that was the reason you had to call the minister. You were upset about having to talk to the minister, saying that you had dropped the ball again.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I wasn't upset—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Not with your staff necessarily. You were upset with yourself you were saying.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I was frustrated with the information that I wasn't getting as well. That was what the meeting was about.

In fact, there were times when the minister didn't get the information, but there were more times that I didn't get the information. The flow of information was not the usual speed and pace and flow. We usually get a rhythm going, and there was no rhythm in the flow on information. That's why I called the meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Lloyd.

We go now to Mr. Noormohamed, please, for five minutes.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Commissioner, for joining us.

It's disappointing that so much has been made by some in this committee to try to undermine your credibility and there is such an obsession with trying to find a smoking gun where one doesn't exist.

Your reputation seems to be what people have chosen to put in the crossfire. I want to apologize for that.

I also want to take this time to try to clarify a few things, so that there can be no misapprehension about what actually happened.

In your testimony, you noted that you were asked if certain information would be included. When questions are asked of you as to whether something will be included, do you see that as a direction? Do you take that as a direction, or do you see that as a question for information?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

No, not at all. Direction would be telling me what to do.