Public Safety Committee on Oct. 31st, 2022

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

The answer is yes, sir. In every answer I have given to this committee, in my previous appearances and today.... In every answer I have given in the House, I have spoken the truth.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Minister, do you believe the commissioner has been telling the truth in the answers she has given?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

That's a question best put to the commissioner. In fairness to her and out of respect for the position she holds, I think she should be allowed to speak for herself and explain, for example, the conversation she had with her subordinates.

All I can say is that, in all the interactions I had directly with her...what I myself have done. I've done my very best to convey that honestly and forthrightly to this committee and Parliament.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Minister, a lot of attention is being focused on the view that your office asked whether something would or would not be included in a press conference.

How often, during the course of the operation of your office, is the question asked, “Is this going to be included in something?” or, “Is this going to be done?”

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

It happens throughout an event like a mass casualty event. It was, as I've said, one of the worst shooting events. Many Canadians lost their lives. A community and country have been traumatized by this terrible event. There were, quite understandably, briefings taking place directly with the RCMP commissioner and other officials, in terms of what had transpired. For example, information about this event was coming somewhat slowly to us. I think the commissioner was working diligently throughout, in order to provide briefings to the government.

I have to tell you, my friend, that there's a very clear line on how we speak to the commissioner about this information. It's a line I'm quite familiar with. I was, as you know, for many years, a police leader myself. I had to speak to those to whom I was accountable and provide briefings to them. That line is crystal clear in my mind: Do not give direction to the RCMP. It's a principle I have always respected.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Minister, to be clear, what I'm trying to get at is this: Is it reasonable.... When your office is asking a question, are they just asking a question because they would like an answer versus giving a direction in the asking of that question? That is to say, “Is X or Y going to be included?” because they are curious about whether X or Y is going to be included, versus that, somehow, being intuited into a direction?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

That's one of the reasons why—on April 20, when I was speaking at a press conference beside the commissioner, and again on April 25 and subsequently on May 1—I always prefaced my remarks by saying that information about the investigation, or the release of information or any aspect of the investigation, was solely the responsibility of the RCMP. I was trying to be very clear not only to Canadians but also to my government—to all of us—about the importance of respecting the principle of police independence.

This was a very difficult investigation for the RCMP. There were a lot of questions about what had transpired. People had a desperate need for information, and we respected that. It is ultimately the RCMP's responsibility to provide that information.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Minister.

In the last moments I have, I want to clarify two things. Let's do it one more time.

Did you ever instruct the commissioner of the RCMP to release any information at your direction?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

No, and if I may be very clear, I did not direct her. I did not instruct her, I didn't ask her to do it, I didn't even suggest it should be done. It is, in my opinion, her decision.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

So if any information was chosen to be released, we can sit here confidently knowing that it would have been the decision of the commissioner of the RCMP alone and not you, not the Prime Minister, not political staff, no one.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

It is the job of the RCMP commissioner as the head of that organization.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Minister.

I think that's all I have, Mr. Chair. I think I may be out of time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

You have one minute left.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

In that case, I do have one more question for you, Minister, if I might.

Minister, as we all know, this was one of the most horrific tragedies in the history of this country. Communities have been traumatized and, regrettably, we are now having to understand much of what happened. The Mass Casualty Commission is doing its work. This committee is going through this process right now.

What is your message to those who may see this in some way, shape or form as undermining the credibility of the RCMP and of our public safety institutions in this country? What would you say to Canadians who are watching this to reassure them that we can have confidence in our police forces?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I think one of the greatest principles of trusting the police is that they are an institution that is accountable to the people they're sworn to serve and protect. In these circumstances, it's one of the reasons that our government brought forward a commission of inquiry to answer certain questions with respect to, for example, RCMP communications, the actions that were taken in response to the shootings, including the critical incident response, and the services that were provided for victims.

Transparency and accountability to the public is foundational and a principle of trust in our policing institutions, and I think it is incumbent.... I've been through this previously in another role that I've held. It's incumbent upon the police to explain their actions and to be accountable to the people they're sworn to serve and protect.

The families of the people who lost loved ones in this terrible tragedy need answers, and they need our compassion and our respect, and that's why, as well, the report of the Mass Casualty Commission will be so important to them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Noormohamed.

Ms. Michaud, you have six minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being with us, Minister. We are pleased that you are appearing on this topic again.

Last time you appeared before the Committee, on July 25, you stated in your opening remarks:

I want to make it very clear: At no point did I direct the RCMP in any operational matter, including on public communications. I did not ask them to release any specific information, nor did I receive a promise for them to do so.

You were referring to Commissioner Lucki.

However, according to the transcript of the meeting on April 28, 2020, Commissioner Lucki stated:

“ ...it was a request that I got from the Minister's office, and I shared with the Minister that, in fact, it was going to be in the news release, and it wasn't.”

You stated numerous times that you did not make Ms. Lucki promise anything. However, her statements really seem to confirm that that is what she was talking about.

You said that you were not part of that conversation and I know that we can't speculate, but, in your opinion, what would she have been talking about, if it was not about revealing which weapons had been used?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Again, I don't want to speculate. I can tell you that I had no direct conversation with the commissioner. My interactions with the RCMP were almost, in every case, directly with the commissioner. The commissioner never advised me, personally, that it was her intention and her decision to release that information.

I understand subsequently from her testimony that she had passed that information on to someone in my office, but we never had the conversation because, quite frankly, I'd never asked her to do that. I never thought she was going to and, frankly, I didn't really think it was particularly necessary. It was a decision that I believe the commissioner had come to on her own, and she shared her decision with my office, but it wasn't something that I had requested or required of her.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

You said that she didn't speak to you about it directly. She may have told someone at your office without you knowing about it.

When the transcript for that meeting was made public, did you and your team, when you were Minister of Public Safety, check whether this request was made by your office without you being aware of it?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I am absolutely certain that it was not direction from my office, and the commissioner has, in fact, confirmed in her own testimony both here and before the Mass Casualty Commission that at no time was she directed and, in her words, she was “not influenced by government officials”, which would have included everyone in my office.

I will also say, because it was not something I had ever asked or required of her, that the fact that she had made a decision to do it and then it didn't happen was not terribly relevant to me and not something that I felt I needed to follow up on with the commissioner, because it was not something that, quite frankly, I had sought or required or directed her to do.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

You talked about following up.

In that same transcript of the meeting on April 28, 2020, Commissioner Lucki stated that the minister wanted to speak to her after the press conference. I am referring to you, of course. She said she knew exactly what it was about. Listening to you, it's clear that you don't seem to agree. She seemed to say that you wanted to talk about disclosing the type of weapons during the press conference.

Did that discussion between the two of you take place, after that press conference? If so, what was it about?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I have no recollection of having that conversation, but it most certainly did not involve the release of information with respect to the weapons used. Frankly, I was not even aware that the commissioner had made the decision to release that information.

I had said, sitting next to her at press conferences on the 20th and the 25th, and then again on May 1, that it was up to the RCMP to make a determination on if and when any information related to the investigation should be revealed.

I don't have any recollection of requiring a call with the commissioner. I was receiving briefings from her, but it was not something I reached out to her about or was waiting to speak to her about. I think the commissioner herself will have to explain her comments.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

If this request didn't come directly from you or your office, do you think it could have come from the Prime Minister's Office?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I absolutely believe that is not true.

Under subsection 5(1) of the RCMP Act, there is only one person in the government of Canada who has any authority to provide direction to the RCMP. That's the Minister of Public Safety, which is a role that I held at the time. In that role, I did not at any time give direction.

That's confirmed, in my opinion, by Commissioner Lucki's testimony, both before this committee and before the Mass Casualty Commission, in which she was very explicit and under oath. She said she received no direction from any member of the government, including myself.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

What makes this testimony a bit strange is that this is not the only thing that leads us to think these discussions may have taken place.

The director of strategic communications for the Halifax RCMP, Lia Scanlan, said roughly the same thing, that government officials and the Prime Minister wanted to sort of control the message at that point. That means directives would have been issued by your office and the Prime Minister's Office.

What is your response to that?