Evidence of meeting #43 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was weapons.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Commr Brenda Lucki
That's incorrect. The information was not to share the information. It was simply a question about whether, in fact, the information in that press conference would include information about the weapons.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
She asked you whether it would be. Is that what you're saying?
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
We asked the minister several times, in the hour before you appeared, whether that was the case. He flat out denied that was real. He denied that his chief of staff did that. He denied that his office asked, or even knew that you were going to be seeking this information being released.
How do you respond to his denying what you've said to us here today, over the summer, and also at your testimony at MCC? In essence, he's saying it's not true.
Commr Brenda Lucki
First and foremost, I didn't deal a lot with the minister directly. I did at the beginning of the event, but I dealt more so with various people on his staff, as well as the deputy minister of Public Safety. There was a lot of back and forth.
This was, as I said, a crazy time. There were a lot of phone calls and different talks. I didn't have my staff with me, for the most part, because of COVID—
October 31st, 2022 / 4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
I understand.
I'm sorry to interrupt, Commissioner.
The minister is saying this did not happen—that his staff did not ask you to do this.
Commr Brenda Lucki
They didn't ask me to do anything. They just asked a simple question.
I provided one of the versions, because there were several versions of the media event that day. I provided one of the versions of the speaking notes of Superintendent Darren Campbell.
They asked whether, in fact, the information about the weapons would be part of that media release—
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
I need to interrupt you. Thank you very much.
You mentioned—it's even in your words, just now—that it was a simple ask: “Is this going to be included?” To me, it seems as if you're downplaying this a bit.
When you listen to the audio recording of that meeting, it's very clear this was very important to you. In fact, you said that you would have to apologize to the minister for not, in essence, delivering on that.
I'm getting a bit of tension here. You're saying, “It wasn't that big of a deal. She had this ask, and I said, 'Yes it would be'.” It was a big deal to you, wasn't it?
That's why you called that meeting. That entire audio recording was about this issue.
Commr Brenda Lucki
No, it wasn't about this issue.
Ninety per cent of that meeting was about issues regarding the flow of information from the start of this incident. There were several requests for several different kinds of information, which I wasn't receiving in a timely manner. Some of the information wasn't completely accurate.
As mentioned, I say, in the recording, that I planned to have this meeting at an earlier time. There were one or two times when I would have wanted to have the meeting. I was very conscious of it.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Thank you.
Commissioner, you mentioned you had to apologize to the minister. Did you speak to him and make that apology?
Commr Brenda Lucki
No, I think it was more to his office. It was an apology for misinformation. It was simply about the fact that I—
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Pardon me. To clarify, did you apologize to his chief of staff?
Commr Brenda Lucki
Yes, I'm saying it was somebody in his office. It was more than likely his chief of staff. I would have said, “You know what? I'm sorry. I didn't get that—”
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
That's understood.
Zita Astravas, the chief of staff, asked you whether you were going to share this information. From our perspective, that would be political pressure. The minister's office and his chief of staff are “the minister”. We know, if it's the minister's chief of staff, that it's the minister asking for it.
The minister's chief of staff was asking whether this information—which you yourself connected to the OIC gun control policy coming forward—was going to be included in the press conference. To us, that's political pressure from the minister's office. That's the concern here, ma'am.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
You understand there's a perception you were attempting to further the Liberal political agenda concerning gun control.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
You mentioned it specifically in the audio recording, ma'am. That's irrefutable.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Are you denying that you mention it in the audio recording?
Commr Brenda Lucki
I talked about gun legislation, because, if you recall, my very first media event was with Minister Blair. One-third of that was about Nova Scotia. The other two-thirds were actually about gun legislation. Obviously, that was in the news quite a bit. I was providing context for my staff.
You'll also recall that there were many requests. We had a rule when we provided information to the minister's office: Nothing could be released until it was released by our folks. That's why it was important—what would be and wouldn't be released at what time.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Again, you are kind of downplaying the urgency you had with wanting the weapons information released at that press conference, yet Sharon Tessier, who is the RCMP communications lady, emailed her counterpart in Nova Scotia quite insistently. She said, “Please tell me Darren is going to mention the guns. My phone is lighting up.”
She is saying this to her during the press conference, clearly indicating there is serious urgency from her—and she answers to you, correct?—and asking why isn't this information being released.
If you're looking at this all together, Commissioner, it is very difficult for us to believe the narrative that this wasn't that big a deal, that you weren't trying to further the Liberal political agenda, because in the audio recording you make it evident—you make the connection. Your staff are really harassing the Nova Scotia staff, saying, why isn't this information being released?
You understand the perception, which is why you're here today.
I may say, the minister denied all of this. He denied that his chief of staff asked this of you. Don't you find that odd, that he is saying that what you've said in committee here and in testimony was incorrect?
Commr Brenda Lucki
No. There was a lot of information going back and forth.
What I will say is that it's important to note that there were a lot of requests of about when are we going to release the names of the victims, when are we going to release the locations of each and every deceased? There was lots of information, because they could not speak about it until we did.
It wasn't unusual to ask if in fact information was going to be included. The firearms was only one of several requests. We're making it all about the firearms here, but really it wasn't all about the firearms. My meeting was just one example of many others. There was a chronology I was looking for. There was a map I was looking for. There were some timelines I was looking for. These were all expectations I had, which had not been met and the firearms were but one of those.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
Thank you, Commissioner. I'll have to cut you off there.
Thank you, Ms. Dancho.
We go now to Ms. Damoff, please, for six minutes.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you for being here again, Commissioner.
The recording that was released is a partial recording. It starts mid-conversation, so we don't know what transpired beforehand.
There have been accusations made here that you're not telling the truth, so Commissioner, did the minister or his staff direct you in any way prior to your conversation with the Nova Scotia RCMP?