Public Safety Committee on Oct. 31st, 2022

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

That's part of a briefing.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Okay, that's part of the briefing.

Rob Stewart then immediately emailed this list to his director general for policy, Randall Koops, asking him, “Are any of these on the to-be-banned list?”

This was just days before the May 1 OIC announcements on the firearms being banned. Your deputy minister was already linking what happened in Nova Scotia to the soon-to-be May 1 announcement on firearms.

Given that evidence, do you agree that your office was in communication with the RCMP about the firearms used in the Nova Scotia mass shooting so that this information could be used at the May 1 announcement?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

To be really clear, first of all, the deputy minister is in the public service and doesn't—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

And your chief of staff.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Just let me finish, if I may.

He was doing his job, and it's his job to speak to his own officials about this. I recall being advised that we had been provided with that information and that the RCMP had indicated that it was not to be released because of the ongoing investigation. At all times subsequent to that, until the information was released several months later as a result of an ATIP request, we respected the position of the RCMP, and although we knew that information, we never released it because the RCMP said that it shouldn't be released and would compromise their investigation. We agreed and said that it was entirely up to the RCMP to make that decision, not us.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

You make that assertion, Minister. If that assertion is true that the RCMP said this would compromise an investigation, why then would it have been the RCMP commissioner's idea to release this information?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

That is a question you may wish to put to the RCMP commissioner.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Did it not strike you as odd that you knew that your staff had received an email saying this information was not to be released publicly, and then the RCMP commissioner went to your staff to say they were planning on releasing this information publicly?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Again, that's a decision solely of the purview of the RCMP. The commissioner is the head of that organization. If she makes a decision with respect to her organization, that's her job and not something that we would ever interfere with, and didn't.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

We will go now to Mr. Chiang, for three minutes, please.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

Minister Blair, in recent weeks we have heard renewed allegations from opposition parties of political interference between you and Commissioner Lucki. These renewed allegations are related to a partial meeting recording that was released between Commissioner Lucki and other RCMP officials.

Minister, were you a participant in that meeting that was recorded?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

No, Mr. Chiang, I was not. This was a conversation between the commissioner and her subordinates. Neither I nor anybody who works for me was present.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Minister, for answering that question again and again.

If the recorded meeting was not between yourself and Commissioner Lucki, any allegation of political interference must rely on speculation rather than any actual evidence or first-hand witness testimony. Would that be correct?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I think it's fair to say that there has been a great deal of speculation, conjecture, innuendo and even fabrication related to that. That's why I have worked so hard in the House and before this committee to simply provide the truth.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you so much, Minister.

As both of us are former police officers, and given your professional background as a police chief, can you speak a bit more about the independence and why it is so important for independence of police operations.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chiang.

As I said, it really comes down to the public trust. Frankly, without the consent and the trust of the people the police are sworn to serve and protect, the police cannot do their job, and they can't keep our communities safe. However, the public also needs to trust that the police are acting in the public interest, that they are guided only by the rule of law and not by any political consideration. That's why that's such a bright line.

The police are also accountable. We give the police extraordinary authorities, and we give them those authorities with the belief that they will be held accountable. That's one of the reasons we set up governance bodies such as police services boards, with which you and I are quite familiar, and we sometimes have ministers—the Solicitor General of Ontario, for example—who have some ministerial oversight.

The line between our boards and ministerial oversight is very different from being able to provide any kind of political direction, however. The public needs to be assured that the police will be operating in their best interest and following only the rule of law. That's why it's so important, and that's why, quite frankly, I am so concerned by the innuendo and speculation that's being applied by some in this case because I think it has the effect of undermining public trust. It's one of the reasons I have tried so vigorously to assure the public that in this case there was no interference.

I also acknowledge and am grateful for the commissioner's strong assertions that there was no government interference in this matter or any investigative matter pertaining to the mass shooting in Nova Scotia.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Chiang. That brings our questioning to a close.

Thank you all for being here today. Deputy Minister Tupper and Minister Blair, thank you for your time and for helping us with our inquiries.

With that, we will suspend and bring in our next panel.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I call this meeting back to order.

On our second panel, we have, from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Commissioner Brenda Lucki.

Welcome, Commissioner.

We'll give up to five minutes for opening remarks, after which we will proceed with rounds of questions.

Please go ahead, Commissioner, for five minutes, if you will.

[Commissioner Brenda Lucki, Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon. I'm speaking to you from the traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

This isn't the first time I've testified on the perception of political interference. The released audio recording of the April 28, 2020, meeting makes it abundantly clear: I did not, nor did I attempt to, interfere in the criminal investigation into the 2020 mass casualty event in Nova Scotia on behalf of Minister Blair or the Prime Minister.

There was no political interference. I was neither asked, directed nor pressured by government officials to release information specific to the firearms used by the perpetrator in these horrific attacks. I had the information on the firearms, and I had the authority to release it publicly—I did not. I respected the views of my employees that releasing it at the time could impact the investigation.

In all my interactions with government officials, I'm aware of my responsibilities as commissioner and the importance of ensuring foundational principles of police independence. This is so important for the RCMP, for all police services.

I would encourage this committee to consider the difference between law enforcement's sharing information versus the perception of political interference. As I outlined for this committee in July and at the Mass Casualty Commission, there were requests for information on all aspects of the attacks, including information related to the firearms. The requests for information were reasonable and did not raise any concerns of political interference or impact the operational independence of the RCMP.

As commissioner, it's my responsibility to provide accurate, relevant, and timely information to government counterparts, elected officials and their offices. These were the expectations that I was outlining in the April 28 meeting with my colleagues in Nova Scotia. I was not being briefed with the necessary information about the ongoing operation, and it was for this reason that the meeting was called. Those who have listened to the recordings heard that I was frustrated with the information flow from Nova Scotia RCMP, be it related to victims, sites and the supports provided to RCMP employees. This is in line with my previous testimony before the committee and the MCC. In the lead-up to the April 28 press conference, I provided government officials with an overview of the information that was being made public. The sharing of the information in briefings with the Minister of Public Safety are necessary, particularly during significant operations or incidents. It is common practice and does not impact the integrity of ongoing investigations or interfere with the independence of the RCMP.

It was at this time that I was asked if the information about weapons would be included. Following a briefing from my team at national headquarters, confirming the information was to be publicly released, I, in turn, advised government officials of the same. There was a miscommunication, and this is clear on the recording. Sharon Tessier notes that she likely told me that Darren Campbell was going to speak about the weapons in the upcoming press conference, and then acknowledged that she had, in fact, misinformed me.

During the call, you hear me reference pending gun legislation to help provide context on why it was important to be clear on what we would share. I was not suggesting that the weapons information was needed to inform or support the pending legislation. It was simply about providing context for my employees.

In addition to the legislation, there was considerable public interest in knowing about the firearms used in the attacks. This is something seen following other mass shootings, both here and in Canada and in other countries around the world. The desire to keep the public informed was part of the reason I wanted the information released. We were getting questions at press conferences, and I wanted to be sure that I was providing clear and accurate information about what we could and would say at different points in the days and weeks following the event.

As I have already stated, once I was informed by my team that the releasing of information would jeopardize the ongoing investigation, the matter was closed, and I passed this along to the minister's office.

I know how important today's discussions are, but I want to reiterate and be very clear for the record: I did not interfere with the investigation. I did not receive direction. I was not influenced by elected or government officials in relation to the direction of the investigation or the release of the information to the public.

I love the RCMP, and I am so honoured to be the commissioner. I'm so incredibly proud of the great work my employees do from coast to coast to coast each and every day, and I'm so thankful for them. I would never impact the operational independence of my organization. Maintaining integrity is absolutely paramount.

Following today's testimony, it's my hope that we can quickly move past this conversation in order to help the people of Nova Scotia continue to heal and to keep the focus on those impacted.

These discussions are important.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Commissioner.

We will start our questioning now.

We will start with Ms. Dancho.

Go ahead, please, for six minutes.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Commissioner, for being here today.

In the audio recording, you specifically mentioned a request you got from the minister's office. Can you confirm that you did, in fact, get a request from the minister's office?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Yes, there was a request.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Was it from the chief of staff, Zita Astravas? Did she make that request of you?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I believe so, yes.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

The request, specifically, was to share the weapons information at the April 28 press conference. Is that correct?