Public Safety Committee on Nov. 1st, 2022

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I would agree with you. In the army, we use BFAs at the end of our rifles when we're shooting blank ammunition. It also shows that the rifle is safe at the time. Using a brightly coloured tip on an airsoft seems a reasonable compromise to be made, although if somebody is intent on using a replica airsoft firearm in a nefarious way, obviously they could spray paint the brightly coloured tip on that.

There's nothing that law-abiding, fun-loving airsoft people can really do about people who are determined to use airsoft guns for bad purposes. Is that correct?

[Matt Wasilewicz]

I agree that it would be mostly correct. It's very difficult to regulate criminals, because they don't follow the laws in the first place. Our proposals are more focused on reducing honest mistakes among people who don't have any ill intent or who maybe just didn't know the rules or what procedures they needed to follow when it comes to the use of airsoft or air guns in general.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

What we're looking at is an industry that is overwhelmingly safe. The data shows that it's an overwhelmingly safe sport to play and that the members who play the sport are competent people who aren't engaging in criminal activity, yet we're contemplating legislation that will, as you or another witness said, completely end the sport of airsoft in Canada.

One of the things we consider as government, when we're making legislation, is proportionality. Do you think this legislation is disproportionate in banning airsoft in Canada?

[Matt Wasilewicz]

As currently written, I would definitely have to agree with you. It's not even disproportionate; it's totalitarian. It completed closes our entire industry all at once. That's why we're committed to working with the government on finding solutions that address legitimate public safety concerns and, at the same time, will allow our industry to continue.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

What are the monetary figures we're talking about, the GDP figures, of the airsoft industry in Canada? Do you have an estimate on that?

[Matt Wasilewicz]

My best estimate would be over $200 million, and that is factoring in playing fields and retail locations. This is just kind of based on what I know my business and others import and the types of business my customers do. If you were to factor in the other industries, though, that are also affected, such as the more traditional BB guns and pellet guns you'd find in Walmarts and Canadian Tires, that figure would definitely grow significantly.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Now, a second concern that law enforcement had is the ability to convert airsoft guns into a regular firearm. As far as I've seen, it's not like we can convert an airsoft easily, and if we could convert it, you're not talking about heavy calibres. I think we're talking about a 0.22, which is a pretty small calibre of firearm.

How prevalent is the conversion, and, frankly, why would anyone want to convert an airsoft gun to a regular firearm?

[Matt Wasilewicz]

To answer the second part of your question first, I think the only reason you'd want to do that is if you were a criminal with ill intent, but as far as the convertibility goes, this really affects only a small percentage of airsoft guns that are available, and that would be typically guns that are called “gas blowback”. They operate on a gas rather than an electric function. About 90% of the market is electric airsoft guns.

This is something the RCMP already has quite a good handle on.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I have only 30 seconds left. If there were a proposal whereby the regulations applied only to these gas blowback-powered airsoft guns as opposed to electric guns, would that be a positive thing for your industry? Is that something you would support?

[Matt Wasilewicz]

That is something we could support, because the mechanism already exists to determine if they are allowed or not—it's getting a so-called FRT number. Typically, when something is imported, if there is a question it is submitted to the RCMP lab. They do their studies on it, and they assign an FRT number, either giving it basically the “all clear” or determining that it does pose a risk. They've been doing this now for quite some time; it's an ongoing process.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Lloyd.

We go now to Mr. Noormohamed for five minutes, please.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Hackenbruch and Mr. Wasilewicz—I hope I got your name right.

I want to begin by thanking both of you for putting forward what I think are some really good ideas in terms of how we can ensure the longevity of your sport.

I had the pleasure of meeting with a couple of other individuals yesterday from your industry who shared similar views in terms of finding ways to work with government, which I think is really important. I want to be very clear that my intent, and the intent of many of us— certainly all of us on this committee—is not to kill the industry. The proposals you are making are really important in helping us get to a good place around ensuring public safety in respect of your industry.

You spoke in terms of carrying these guns and making sure they are carried in a similar manner as live-round firearms. Can you talk a little more about what you're proposing there? Can you talk a bit more specifically around the potential registration when these items are sold to those aged 18-plus? What do you think the industry is willing to do to address those two specific things? Just elaborate a little on what you talked about.

First, maybe, Mr. Hackenbruch, you can lead off, and then Mr. Wasilewicz, you can add additional comments if you have any.

[Scott Hackenbruch]

As far as transportation goes, many of us already purchase plastic cases that are opaque in nature, usually intended for traditional firearms. Transporting them in those allows for a lock to be attached, so the case can't be opened quickly. We use those if we're transporting them on aircraft to go to international events or crossing the border.

We feel that would be a good way of ensuring that the devices are not accidentally seen or waved around in public, causing unnecessary scares, as it were, and escalating a situation beyond what's immediately required.

Forgive me. I forgot the second half of your question.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

The 18-plus piece, and then ensuring that it remains regulated.

[Scott Hackenbruch]

There are a number of options we could look at. The two largest that spring to mind are what the United Kingdom has, something known as UKARA and UKAPA. They are two associations that work with each other, UKARA being retailer-based and UKAPA being the player version of that.

In order to purchase airsoft guns, you would need to be a member of UKAPA. In order to sell them, you would have to be a member of UKARA. There is also the Netherlands, which uses a number of local associations to effectively do the same thing. The associations would be responsible for maintaining records, as well as for an age verification system to ensure that those purchasing the firearms are 18 or older.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Wasilewicz, did you want to add anything to that, or should I go on to my next question?

[Matt Wasilewicz]

For transportation, the best way to get those rules across so players know is at the point of sale, through the waiver we discussed. I think education is probably the best approach to making sure people know that.

I agree that the two-tier system that is used in the United Kingdom is probably the best approach to ensuring there's still regulation after sale. Basically, that concept ensures that only people who are dedicated to the sport are able to purchase the normal airsoft equipment we see now. People who aren't dedicated—maybe just the casual user—are basically limited to purchasing very brightly coloured ones. As evidence that they're not real airsoft guns, that's usually a very bright colour covering about 50% of the surface area.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I'll dig in a bit now. If we're able to proceed and it's 18 plus for purchase, that's great, but how do you make sure or what do you think the industry is willing to do to make sure that when those guns go home.... The 18-plus dad or mom buys it. It's sitting around the house and now a kid picks it up, takes it to school and we start to see tragedies like the one we saw not long ago.

What would the industry be prepared to do, in terms of working with government, to ensure that this doesn't happen? What recommendations would you be willing to make or work with such that we avoid those types of circumstances happening, sometimes with tragic consequences?

[Scott Hackenbruch]

It's very difficult to police what people do in their own home with their own children, but making it clear that these devices are intended for adults is part of that. Restricting the sale to 18 plus and instructing the purchaser that the intention is they're meant for adults, not for children, I think, goes a long way towards that. Again, I don't know what we could do once it's in a private home beyond explaining to people what the laws are. If they choose to violate those laws, I don't know how to stop that.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

What about storage requirements similar to what is currently required for folks who have live-round guns at home?

[Scott Hackenbruch]

That's definitely a potential option to pursue.

My stuff is always stored in its case on a very high shelf, so my one-year-old can't ever get a hold of it. I think a perfectly reasonable solution is making sure they're stored in a way that they can't be improperly accessed by the wrong parties.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

To the second part of the conversation we had prior, I think Mr. Wasilewicz talked about having 50% of the weapon being brightly coloured—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Mr. Noormohamed, I'm sorry. Your time's up.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

We go next to Madame Michaud.

You have the floor for six minutes.