Evidence of meeting #44 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was industry.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
5:15 p.m.
Director, Airsoft Association of British Columbia
Yes, sir. All the injuries I've ever seen are related to, as Matt pointed out, running around. It's no more dangerous than running, jogging or hiking.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
It strikes me as odd.
How many Canadians do you think are involved in airsoft in Canada? Do we have any numbers, offhand?
5:15 p.m.
Owner and President, Canadian Airsoft Imports
I would say it would be in the hundreds of thousands. The Airsoft Canada forum, which is one of the most popular forums that players join to talk about airsoft and that kind of thing, currently has 380,000 members right now, I believe. Of course, there are a lot of people who aren't necessarily on that forum who participate in airsoft as well.
It is quite a large community, for sure.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
Mr. Hackenbruch, does the inclusion of airsoft in Bill C-21 seem to be more ideologically driven than driven by public safety?
5:15 p.m.
Director, Airsoft Association of British Columbia
I can't really speak to what's in the minds of the people drafting the bill. I just know that the way we read it, clauses 1(1) and 1(2) would eliminate it.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
Are you aware of any evidence to suggest that those who are involved in the airsoft sport have a greater propensity towards violence or criminality at all?
5:15 p.m.
Director, Airsoft Association of British Columbia
No, sir.
A great number of members are part of the law enforcement community or military members. We're husbands and fathers, and it's just our hobby on the weekend. It's our sport.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
One challenge that many Canadians have with Bill C-21 is that it seems to target law-abiding citizens, who have never been the problem—and stats confirm this—with the gun violence we're seeing in our country. It doesn't focus on the acts of smuggled firearms used by criminals.
If you look at this piece of legislation, what recommendations would you make to ensure that the legislation is focused in the right direction, forgetting your industry in airsoft?
How can we ensure that this firearms legislation actually makes a difference for public safety and actually focuses on those who commit crimes with firearms—the criminals? How do we do that?
5:15 p.m.
Director, Airsoft Association of British Columbia
Primarily, the conversation around airsoft tends to be the misuse of the devices. The solutions we've proposed would eliminate that in large part by restricting it to older individuals who are not going to abuse them, and with restrictions on the transportation, etc.
As for criminals, the laws already exist to prosecute people who misuse these devices. That, in and of itself, could be a hindrance and a deterrent.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
I just have one last question in the minute and half or so that I have left.
As I understand it, an unamended Bill C-21—and I think my NDP colleague creates a dangerous legal precedent and some ambiguity around the possession of airsoft firearms, although they're not really firearms in the extent of it—would cause a really chilling effect on the industry and a real minefield, if you will, for those who are in the sport.
It's been stated by public safety officials and legislators that airsoft people don't have to worry with Bill C-21. It's fine for those who continually use these, yet the new classifications, as we know, prohibit these devices. It sends some mixed messages.
Where do you see us going from here?
5:20 p.m.
Owner and President, Canadian Airsoft Imports
That is definitely problematic. The only way to really go from this is to.... If we're going to add more regulation for airsoft, we have to come at it with a more comprehensive package that acknowledges what airsoft is, and then we go from there to implicate some of the regulations we've proposed, making it a little more specific.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
Sorry, Mr. Motz, but we're done.
Thank you.
We will go now to Mr. Van Bynen. You have five minutes, please.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Tony Van Bynen Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to come back to the notion that the consideration this committee is undertaking is much more than airsoft. It's about gun safety, etc. The crossover point at this moment, for this discussion, is likely the types of risks the airsoft weapons present to our community.
I'm going to go back to the testimony of Chief Evan Bray, the chief of police in Regina. He stated, “When a gun that looks exactly like a Glock, which is the gun we carry at the Regina Police Service, is brought out and used in the commission of an offence, most of the time even police officers, in the heat of the moment, can't determine whether the firearm is real or not. It does pose an absolute threat.”
I'd like to come back to how we differentiate. If the airsoft weapons, or if the airsoft equipment—I don't know how you wish to classify it—represents a risk, why is there a reluctance to make it not look like a weapon that creates a risk when it is in a confrontation? Why is there that reluctance, that resistance?
Go ahead, Mr. Wasilewicz.
5:20 p.m.
Owner and President, Canadian Airsoft Imports
I'm not really sure what you're proposing here. If we're talking about making, let's say, airsoft guns look nothing like a real firearm, then I'm not really sure how you would accomplish that.
There's a saying that “form follows function”. If you're trying to design a device that can shoot a BB, then you need to be able to hold it and you need to have a trigger to operate it. It doesn't really matter. At the end of the day, it's going to end up looking like a firearm, especially from a distance.
That being said, there are real firearms, actually, that look more like space guns that are used in movies all the time, so you get a blurred line there of what something is supposed to look like in order to not look like a firearm, especially from a distance. That's why we believe our proposals, which are focused more on education and stopping honest mistakes, are probably the most effective when it comes to a criminal who is trying to use something while committing a crime. They're making that choice to commit a crime, so the police have to respond, in turn, to that.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Tony Van Bynen Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON
You mentioned a two-stage system in the U.K. Can you explain that to me, please?
5:20 p.m.
Owner and President, Canadian Airsoft Imports
Yes. The way that system works is it ensures that traditional airsoft guns are available only to those who are active in the community, who have gone through education. They know what they are supposed to do with them and how to safely own them. It ensures that people who have not gone through that far, for instance the casual user who wants to just walk into a store and buy something to play around with at the back of their farm, are limited to buying only a product that is very brightly coloured, to make it very evident that it is not a real firearm.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Tony Van Bynen Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON
Could that not be applied to all weapons that create a problem?
5:20 p.m.
Owner and President, Canadian Airsoft Imports
To have them all be brightly coloured.
5:20 p.m.
Owner and President, Canadian Airsoft Imports
That definitely poses a bit of a problem for players in airsoft.
First, I don't think they're the ones who are going to be walking down the street in public with them. They know the rules, and they're engaged in the sport.
Also, when playing a game like that in a field, having something that is bright pink is not exactly conducive to trying to hide, and that sort of thing.
5:25 p.m.
Owner and President, Canadian Airsoft Imports
Yes, I would say that's probably the reason. That's why I think the two-tiered approach is probably the most effective as a good compromise.