Public Safety Committee on Feb. 3rd, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Good morning, everybody. Welcome to meeting number five of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. So you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking, rather than the entirety of the committee.

Given the ongoing pandemic situation and in light of the recommendations from health authorities, as well as the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on October 19, 2021, to remain healthy and safe, all those attending the meeting in person are to maintain physical distancing and the appropriate mask wearing that you all know so well.

If it's okay with you, I'll dispense with other instructions. Is that okay? Thank you.

For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in a committee room. Keep in mind the Board of Internal Economy's guidelines for mask use and health protocols.

When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute. I remind you that all comments by members should be addressed through the chair. With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk will advise the chair on whose hands are up, to the best of his ability, and we will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

Pursuant to the order adopted by the House of Commons on Tuesday, December 7, 2021 and the motion adopted on Tuesday, December 14, 2021, the committee is resuming its study of gun control, illegal arms trafficking and the increase in gun crimes committed by members of street gangs.

With us today by video conference, representing the Akwesasne Mohawk Police Service, we have Shawn Dulude, chief of police. From the Mohawk Council of Akwesasne, we have Abram Benedict, grand chief; and April Adams-Phillips, chief. Representing the Winnipeg Police Association, we have Maurice Sabourin, president; and Philip Neyron, detective.

Up to five minutes will be given for opening remarks, after which we will proceed with rounds of questions.

Welcome, everybody.

I now invite Chief Dulude to make an opening statement of up to five minutes.

It's over to you, Chief.

[Shawn Dulude, Chief of Police, Akwesasne Mohawk Police Service]

Good morning, everyone. Thank you for inviting me here to this panel on this subject matter.

I would like to take this time, at this point, to say that I hope the answers I will provide to your questioning will enlighten everyone on our situation here, which is very similar across the whole country in first nations policing. I hope that at the end of this period today, and the subsequent testimony, it will help first nations policing progress as a whole in the country, and not only for the Akwesasne Mohawk Police Service.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

Is that the extent of your opening remarks, Chief?

[Shawn Dulude]

Yes, it is.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Okay. Thank you.

Grand Chief Benedict, I now invite you to make an opening statement of up to five minutes. Please, the floor is yours.

[Grand Chief Abram Benedict, Grand Chief, Mohawk Council of Akwesasne]

I'll say good morning and she:kon to honourable members and you, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to address you today. We bring greetings on behalf of the Mohawk Council of Akwesasne and the community of Akwesasne.

Today, we will present to the committee information about our unique community, the reality of the situation and our efforts to keep Akwesasne safe.

I am joined by Chief April Adams-Phillips, a member of our council, and our chief of police, Shawn Dulude.

I'm going to ask Chief Phillips to begin our presentation.

[April Adams-Phillips, Chief, Mohawk Council of Akwesasne]

Good morning. She:kon, everyone.

Akwesasne is in a unique geographical setting. Today Akwesasne is the land of borders. The international border between Canada and the United States runs directly through our land. Half the community resides in Canada, in the provinces of Quebec and Ontario, and half the community resides in the United States, within the state of New York.

The Mohawk Council of Akwesasne is the governing body for the Canadian territory of Akwesasne. We represent a membership of about 13,100 people. Our members live on both sides of the international border, in the various districts of Akwesasne in Ontario, Quebec and New York. If a member wants to travel from one district to another by land, we must cross the international border. The only road from Kawehno:ke, Cornwall Island, in Ontario to Kana:takon, Saint-Régis in Quebec, crosses the international bridge that connects Canada and the United States.

Mohawks who are going to work or school, attending church, shopping, or travelling for recreational, social and cultural purposes must cross the international border and present themselves at the Canadian and American customs. It is not uncommon for members attending funerals to cross the international boundary several times. A funeral procession might leave the deceased's home on Cornwall Island, travel over the international bridge and through U.S. customs to reach the primary community church, which is located in the village on the southern shores of the St. Lawrence. After mass, they may travel back through the United States to Cornwall Island for the burial. After the burial, they may travel to the New York side of Akwesasne for a family meal before returning home in one of these three Canadian districts.

Prior to COVID, Cornwall was Canada's tenth-busiest port of entry in Ontario, with approximately two million vehicles crossing annually. About 70% of these crossings are Mohawks travelling from one district of Akwesasne to another. That equates to 1.4 million trips through Canada customs by Mohawks travelling in Akwesasne, or more than 100 trips per member each year. I am sure you can appreciate that the laws of Canada and the imposition of the international and provincial borders have serious consequences for individual Mohawks and our community as a whole.

I'll hand it over to Grand Chief Benedict.

[Grand Chief Abram Benedict]

Nia:wen , April.

I want to make it clear that public safety is a priority for Akwesasne, but it is a shared responsibility. As a large, advanced indigenous community, we are in a very unique geographical location. However, we experience many challenges created by the international border. Our Akwesasne Mohawk Police Service, AMPS, is part of a joint investigative team with the RCMP, OPP, SQ and CBSA, but we need to be part of the joint forums on border activities, policy and law development. The Akwesasne Mohawk Police Service needs to be at the table where decisions are made and intelligence is shared. Our collective efforts must be made while respecting Akwesasne's jurisdiction and rights. Respect and understanding of Akwesasne's authority are a crucial element in our collective success.

A key component of trafficking and cross-border crimes is awareness and prevention. The community safety fund is a start, but a whole-of-government approach is needed to combat crime and gun violence. It is no secret to anyone that our community is exploited by organized crime, but what we do know is that many individuals involved in cross-border trafficking do it because of the money.

The Mohawk Council of Akwesasne is one of the largest community employers, followed by many small businesses. The government needs to come to the table to promote economic development, partner and create more jobs. The Government of Canada legalized cannabis. Health Canada issued a licence to the first on-reserve cannabis producer right here in Akwesasne, but still, every dollar of excise levied from our community, from this licensed facility, goes right to Canada. Canada needs to enter into shared revenue agreements with Akwesasne so that revenue can be reinvested into community prosperity.

You already know that gun trafficking is tied to drug trafficking, but what we know is that fast money in trafficking, in too many cases, supports drug addiction. As many communities face an opiate crisis, especially during COVID, we share these issues as well. With the cycle of loss, crime and addictions continue, organized crime and money being the fuel for exploiting our community.

Continued government investment and willingness to work outside the box are needed. We need investments in the Akwesasne Mohawk Police. One of Public Safety Canada's evaluations of the Akwesasne organized crime initiative's, JIT, report in 2019 recommends the continued support of the Akwesasne Mohawk Police Service “in building their capacity to ensure their full participation on the Joint Investigative Team and contribution to the disruption of organized crime in and around Akwesasne.”

Canada must continue to invest in AMPS. We need to enhance our capacity, enhance our ability to conduct lengthy investigations and purchase new and advanced technology to have the ability to patrol the 25 kilometres of waterway within our reservation. The budget for AMPS has not seen a significant increase in the last several years, except with respect to Ontario, which has provided specific funding for five years to create a snowmobile, all-terrain vehicle and vessel enforcement unit known as SAVE.

No other funding partner has invested in AMPS to increase the ability to combat crime. No other police force in Canada is funded like Akwesasne. This funding agreement causes issues like the chicken-and-egg theory: No government will increase supports without the other agreeing to increase, because of the cost-sharing formula.

In closing, I'm here to tell you that public safety is one of our top priorities. We are always open to partnership. We want to keep our community safe. Akwesasne Mohawk Police needs the designation of an essential service, as many other first nations police services do. We need to be at the table where decisions are made and intelligence is shared, and we need the resources to continue to protect and patrol our community.

That is it for my formal presentation.

Nia:wen to the committee for the opportunity to present. We are open to questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much, Grand Chief.

I'm sure there will be many questions.

First, I would like to invite Mr. Sabourin to take the floor for up to five minutes.

Mr. Sabourin, the floor is yours.

[Maurice Sabourin, President, Winnipeg Police Association]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the rest of the committee for the invite to speak at this committee level.

My name is Maurice Sabourin. I am the president of the Winnipeg Police Association. I have been so for the past eight years. I have been a proud police officer with the Winnipeg Police Service for the last 32 years, with experience in our property crimes division as a detective, our major crimes unit, stolen auto unit and our homicide unit. I have served with our association for the past 14 years and, as I previously mentioned, as president for the last eight.

Joining me today is Detective Phil Neyron, who is also a director with the Winnipeg Police Association. I felt that it was necessary to draw upon his experience. He is a detective within our guns and gangs unit, which is appropriate for the topic today. He is a police officer of 20 years.

Once again, I appreciate the opportunity to weigh in on the topic today, Bill C-5, which I believe is very well intentioned, when you take into account public safety, gangs and the smuggling of guns. I do have some concerns about Bill C-5, as it possibly does not take into account the possibilities that could flow from this bill.

Public safety for us, in particular, is paramount. I think we are arguably one of the most violent jurisdictions in the country, and I would say probably the busiest per capita per police officer, even though we are at the top of the heap in terms of the number of police officers per 100,000 citizens. Gun violence is a daily occurrence in Winnipeg. Anything we can do to weigh in on helping solve this problem is much appreciated.

With the introduction of Bill C-5 and the proposal to remove minimum sentencing, I fear that's going to have a negative effect on public safety here in Winnipeg. As a member of our property crimes unit and our stolen auto unit, I saw the benefits of intensive supervision as well as incarceration and members of the criminal element being placed in incarceration and in remand.

The other negative effect that we have already seen is the potential for the purchase back of illegal firearms. What we are seeing on the street nowadays is as a result of that proposal. The cost of illegal firearms has doubled, which creates more of an opportunity for gun smugglers. When the possibility of a 300% profit over a 100% profit is an opportunity, people are willing to take more risk in smuggling firearms.

In addition, the firearms registry, obviously, has its pros and cons. The pro would be that there should be a better tracking of firearms when it comes to purchase and resale. That is beneficial. Unfortunately, the legislation could use some bolstering in that area. I think for the majority of the offences that are being committed on the street, it's not the legal gun owners who are committing these offences, and the majority of the firearms that are being seized are not legally registered. Winnipeg, in particular, is seizing pretty much the same number of firearms that are being seized in Toronto.

I'm more than happy to expand on any of the statements I have made, but that brings my opening statement to a close.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sabourin.

We appreciate those opening remarks, and you are right on time.

I will now open the floor for questions. At the beginning of the first round, for a six-minute slot, I will call on Ms. Dancho to begin this round of questioning.

The floor is yours, Ms. Dancho.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for being here today. We have a really interesting diversity of witnesses. We have our keystone province police in Winnipeg on the ground with 40 years of experience, and then we have this very unique situation on the border.

I didn't realize that Akwesasne borders Ontario, Quebec and the United States. I knew it bordered the U.S. and Canada, but I didn't realize there was an interprovincial border there as well. I can't imagine all the red tape and bureaucracy you have to go through just to make your community safer. I look forward to asking you some questions.

I am going to start off with the Winnipeg Police Association.

President Sabourin, thank you very much for being here. I appreciate your opening remarks. Recently we spoke and talked about this committee and gun violence, gang violence, and I also brought to your attention Bill C-5, which was brought forward. I'd appreciate your thoughts on Bill C-5 as well. When we last spoke, you mentioned that in Winnipeg—which we know is one of the most dangerous violent crime capitals in Canada, unfortunately—calls for service increased 45% in the last 10 years, and violent and property crimes are up. In fact, you mentioned to me that the crime severity index for Statistics Canada had to increase their scale for Manitoba. I believe we went above 150, and 161 was our crime scale. We know very much what it's like on the ground in Winnipeg, and our hearts go out to those in Montreal who are experiencing a lot of that same violent crime.

You mentioned that meth and drugs are part of that. You also mentioned that you believe it may be the result of having the lowest incarceration rates in 20 years, because so many factors play into this. Can you explain to the committee your perspective on that and how you believe incarceration and violent crime are connected?

[Maurice Sabourin]

Yes, absolutely. What I have found, in my experience, is that when offenders are kept off the streets, that's when we see crime rates starting to diminish.

I did mention that we're experiencing the lowest rate of incarceration in nearly 20 years, but we also see issues with the bail system here in Manitoba. You will quite often hear the term “revolving door”, where offenders are not kept in remand or kept in incarceration until court dates. Typically that results in further crimes being committed by those same individuals. I can't remember the statistic on rehabilitation, but I believe the statistic on that is that, unless an individual is sentenced to more than five years, rehabilitation is not likely.

I've been involved with many units, one being the stolen auto unit, which included intense supervision. We basically took the issue out of the hands of the courts' intensive supervision because, at one time, Winnipeg was number one in auto thefts in the country, unfortunately, and we're not proud of that. We were experiencing close to 35 stolen vehicles per day, and the courts weren't helping at the time, so the Winnipeg auto theft suppression strategy was implemented, which involved expedited warrant systems, a partnership with probations and a partnership with Crown prosecutors where, if a breach of probation occurred, that person was put into incarceration within a day.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

When we met previously, you mentioned that the reason auto theft is so linked to violent crime and gun violence is that it's often very young people—you mentioned as young as eight years old—being recruited into gangs. They sort of start them off with “Go steal that car.” Then they go down a rabbit hole of crime from there. I know that police believe in prevention and helping young people, stopping them by providing other resources to stop them from going into gangs. When they steal their first car, that's when you have to get them and divert them to a better path.

We just have about a minute and a half left. I want to ask you a little bit about police morale. You mentioned a massive increase of calls in the last 10 years, and yet there are not many more police resources. In fact, you said there are fewer police officers on the street now.

Just very quickly, the federal government is bringing in a firearm buyback program. Do police have time to go and institute the federal government orders for this buyback, or should their time be better placed fighting violent criminals and gun violence?

[Maurice Sabourin]

I would completely agree with that. We do not have the resources. You're right.

Our complement in the last six years has decreased by over 100 police officers, and we have become a completely reactive service. There is no patrolling of back lanes anymore to curb gang or gun violence. The unfortunate thing is that we could use more resources on the street and also more resources for social programming, because if we can get to those kids early, that prevents them from entering a gang or continuing to be involved in a gang.

I believe that funding for that buyback program should be diverted to those social programs. We have a member whose position—I can't remember the exact term—is for gang intervention, I believe. That one member is dedicated to trying to get kids to get out of the gang life and to do something positive with their life. That's one person for over 700,000 citizens in Winnipeg, so definitely funding is required, and it would be very much appreciated in order to curb some of those gang initiatives.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sabourin. I appreciate the answers very much.

Now I would like to turn the floor over to Mr. Chiang, who will have six minutes to ask his questions.

Mr. Chiang, the floor is yours, sir.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, everybody.

My question is directed to the Winnipeg Police Service. I'm a retired police officer myself, and I have concerns about the gangs and guns crimes across our country.

The Winnipeg police have a specific unit related to guns and gangs. According to the Winnipeg police, almost half the gang members are under the age of 18. Could you speak about the work this guns and gangs unit does and about the steps that are being taken to address the alarming number of young people involved in these gangs?

[Maurice Sabourin]

Yes, sir. I don't have specific statistical information in relation to that. Unfortunately, I think a lot more work could be done in addressing the young age of gang members. Like I said, we have one dedicated person who is working with youth to try to get them out of the gang life. I think it's a very difficult task for that member. We obviously could use more resources in that area. There are particular social agencies that this member works with on a regular basis. I don't have the details on that, but I do know that they are working to curb that gang activity.

The unfortunate reality of the guns and gangs unit is that they are dealing with a large majority of drug trafficking issues and illegal gun smuggling, as I mentioned before. For a service of our size and with the population of Winnipeg, we are seizing as many illegal firearms as Toronto. We have a definite issue here.

The budget issue is one thing, in terms of not having enough resources to adequately deal with all the social and economic problems we face; I think we're fairly unique in Winnipeg as well. Unfortunately, more needs to be done, and unfortunately it comes down to having the resources. On average, in the past year, I believe our numbers were at 600,000 calls for service. That's almost one call per citizen per year.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you very much for your answer.

You mentioned earlier that the cost of illegal guns is tripling in Winnipeg. Have you heard locally if there's any talk about the gang members renting the guns instead of buying them? Is that a reality that's happening there in Winnipeg?

[Maurice Sabourin]

Again, I'm unaware of that statistic, but I could turn the microphone over to my colleague, Detective Phil Neyron, who would have a better idea if that is something that is occurring here in Winnipeg.

[Philip Neyron, Detective, Winnipeg Police Association]

Good morning.

As for renting firearms, it's more of a.... We're seeing a trend where guns are being used in different parts of the country. Through tracing, we figure out that they have been used in crimes in B.C. and they come to Winnipeg. They're almost cleaning their guns and cleaning things that have been used in a crime. A gun is a commodity; instead of throwing it in the river or hiding it, they are selling it, making a profit. Illegal gun prices have at least doubled, especially handguns with ammunition. They ship them to different parts of the country where they make a profit.

They technically clean the gun. Then they have money for a new gun. That's kind of what we're seeing.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you very much for your answer on that.

I understand that the Winnipeg Police Service is involved in the Manitoba turnabout program for children under 12 who have come in contact with the police over the law. Could you provide more information about this program and the partnership in place between the provincial agency, community groups and local police services? Has this program been helpful for the Winnipeg Police Service itself?

[Maurice Sabourin]

Sir, unfortunately I don't have any statistics on that.

I do know that we have a diversion program that was headed by the guns and gangs unit. That gang intervention individual was also tasked with the diversion. That also included consultation with the provincial agency. Unfortunately, I don't have any statistics on the success of that program at this point.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you so much.