Evidence of meeting #51 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was firearms.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
Okay. I'll keep going.
I have another firearm to ask you about, the Ruger PC carbine takedown hunting rifle. Will that be included if legislation in Bill C-21 and the proposed amendments pass, yes or no?
11:40 a.m.
Technical Specialist, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
First of all, I wouldn't characterize the PC carbine as a hunting rifle. The PC, to my recollection, stands for “police carbine”. It's a small semi-automatic carbine that has a standard magazine size of I believe just under 20 cartridges—17, perhaps. I'd have to look it up to be sure.
As such, it would meet the evergreening definition in that it is semi-automatic, it fires a centrefire cartridge, it has a detachable magazine and the capacity of that magazine exceeds five shots. That firearm would be captured by that definition if it were to come into force.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
Okay. Thank you, Mr. Smith.
Let's go on to the Howa 1500 Hogue bolt-action hunting rifle. Will that particular firearm, if Bill C-21 passes with associated amendments, be prohibited?
11:45 a.m.
Technical Specialist, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
It could be prohibited if it's a calibre large enough to exceed 10,000 joules, but I think the likelihood of it for that particular firearm is limited, so probably not. It could be, but only in the case that—
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
It is on the G-46. I know we're talking about G—4, but G-46 is out there. It's on that list.
11:45 a.m.
Technical Specialist, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
To the extent that it's on, it would only be for those that are chambered for the high-energy cartridges. I believe you would find it, if it is listed, in paragraph 95.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
11:45 a.m.
Technical Specialist, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
That has been there since May 2020. There's no change in what's before the committee today.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
How about the Weatherby Mark 1, 2 or V hunting rifle?
It's a very common hunting rifle in Canada. We spoke with Weatherby yesterday. A thousand have been ordered by hunters this year and distributed among retailers.
Will those be prohibited if Bill C-21 legislation and associated amendments pass?
11:45 a.m.
Technical Specialist, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
The Weatherby Mark V is available in a high-energy calibre, which is known as the .460 Weatherby Magnum. Weatherby rifles chambered for that calibre would be prohibited because the energy exceeds 10,000 joules.
However, Weatherby offers the firearms in a wide variety of calibres, most of which are below the 10,000-joule threshold. Those would have the same classification as they do today, which is typically non-restricted.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
I'll bring this up once again: The concern out in the firearms community and hunting community across Canada is that it will be somehow associated because it's a variant of the particular calibre that you mentioned. By being a variant, will it be included?
I guess that isn't clear. That's why we're getting so many questions about it.
11:45 a.m.
Technical Specialist, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
The prohibited versions of the Weatherby Mark V would be that way because they are chambered for a high-energy calibre, so paragraph 95 applies. Paragraph 95 does not follow the same conventions as the other paragraphs in the regulations. There is no variant or modified version clause in that paragraph.
There is no question of any future variants whatsoever.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
Then I'll go back to the original question: Is the Mark 1, 2 or V hunting rifle on the prohibited list? You've answered yes.
11:45 a.m.
Technical Specialist, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
The Weatherby rifles would be prohibited only if it happened to be chambered for a calibre that exceeds 10,000 joules of energy.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
Okay.
I have another question, this one on a competition rifle. The FNAR Competition .308 rifle is semi-automatic. It's chambered in centrefire calibres.
Will this particular firearm be included in the prohibition list if Bill C-21 and associated amendments pass?
11:45 a.m.
Technical Specialist, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
That particular rifle is already prohibited. It's been prohibited since circa 1992 or 1995 in the original regulations, which you would find in schedule 1. There's no change there. The FN-FAL family is all prohibited.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
That's interesting, because that particular firearm is available for sale today. I've seen it. I'll show you. Again, I'd like to hold up a picture, but I can't.
11:45 a.m.
Technical Specialist, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Are you sure it's an FN-FAL, sir?
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
11:45 a.m.
Technical Specialist, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Maybe I didn't hear it correctly.
Okay, that's a different gun. That's not a FN-FAL.
That firearm is a blend of the FN-FAL and AK-47. It's not explicitly on any of the older lists on schedule 1. I would have to check to see if its on schedule 2, if you just give me a moment.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
Just to clarify, too, Mr. Smith, this is in reference to proposed paragraph 84(1.2)(g) and falls into that definition, just by observation.
11:45 a.m.
Technical Specialist, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yes, it would fall within the bounds of that particular definition because it is a rifle. It is semi-automatic. It fires a centrefire cartridge and it has a detachable magazine, and the magazine sizes vary up to about 30 shots, so yes, it would be captured.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
Okay.
I've asked quite a few questions about firearms and my colleagues will likely have more to ask.
Again, this is all to do with Bill C-21. There's a little bit of a different question. If you can't answer it, I respect that.
I think Canadians are wondering about this too, because I think Canadians want to be safer. I think the Prime Minister has led people to believe that this legislation will make them safer. In capturing hunters and their hunting rifles, we know that hunters are not the problem when it comes to crime in Canada. We all, in this room, know that I'm going to be bringing up an article that speaks to that.
Maybe I'll ask you your opinion: Are hunting rifles the problem when it comes to public safety in Canada?
11:50 a.m.
Technical Specialist, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
That's a policy issue that is best answered by Public Safety. I'm here to answer technical questions.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
Okay. Let me refer to an article in the National Post from September 6. This again answers the question that I've just asked: “What is the problem?”
It states, “Most of the crime guns seized in Toronto are smuggled into Canada from the U.S.: police”. That is the response. The quote is relevant because this is a statement that was made before the Public Safety committee.
The quotes that follow are from police chiefs directly. Regina Police Chief Evan Bray said, “Most laws we create are not going to be followed by people committing crimes with guns. We have a ban on murder in Canada, and yet sadly we still have homicides.” Last, Toronto Deputy Chief Myron Demkiw testified that 86% of crime guns were smuggled into Canada.
Remember that number: 86%.