Public Safety Committee on Dec. 6th, 2022

[Murray Smith]

Well, there's no data process that could produce hard numbers on the use of non-restricted firearms. The data is simply not collected by the Canadian firearms program. There may be other agencies that collect that kind of information, but we don't.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Just to clarify, you said they are generally used and you explained how that determination is made. Are you satisfied that...? “Satisfied” is the word. I mean, you've used a term, and I think it's an important term for us to use. The challenge with such terms is that they are open to interpretation. Someone may say, “Well, I ordinarily use 10,000 joules to hunt for X, Y or Z.” On the notion of “ordinarily used”, would you suggest that reflects the vast majority of folks who are hunting? I think it's important to quantify this. I think it's important for us not to leave things in the ether.

Recognizing that you don't have specific data that speaks to the entirety of the universe of such guns, when we use the term “generally used”, I think it's important for us to give as much context as possible to people as to how you come up with that so people can be satisfied that their ordinarily used weapons and ordinarily used cartridges are not impacted here.

[Murray Smith]

I can only repeat what I said earlier, and that's based on just watching the market and reading reports produced by various other agencies that collect information of this nature for various other purposes. Just observing what the firearms business is in Canada, the market in terms of firearms and ammunition, would lead me to believe that the use of calibres that exceed 10,000 joules has very limited application and very little uptake in Canada. It's relatively uncommon.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you.

Your last statement I think is really important. The fact that it's relatively uncommon and not commonly used is important for all of us to take away from this.

With that in mind, would the same rationale apply to the Mossberg 702 Plinkster Tactical?

[Murray Smith]

No. That's an entirely different kind of firearm.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Okay. Let's talk about that.

[Murray Smith]

The Mossberg 715T is a variant of an AR pattern firearm: AR-15, M4, M16 or AR-10. That firearm is prohibited because of clause 87, which names the AR family of firearms as being prohibited “and any variants or modified versions of them”, and the Mossberg 715T is one such variant.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Okay. How long has it been prohibited?

[Murray Smith]

We formed the opinion in 2020 that it was a prohibited firearm as a result of the change in the law, so “since May 2020” would be the definitive answer for you.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Are other versions of the Mossberg 702 Plinkster Tactical available for hunters?

[Murray Smith]

Yes. The Mossberg model 702 is a different firearm. It's a different model produced by Mossberg. It is a non-restricted firearm.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Okay.

Somebody wrote to me about the Westley Richards Model 1897. Why was this model added to the list?

[Murray Smith]

That particular firearm, again, is listed in the section that deals with high-energy firearms, because that firearm is available in large African hunting calibres, some of which exceed 10,000 joules of energy, but again, it's only those firearms that are actually chambered for a high-energy cartridge that are prohibited.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Okay.

What about the Parker Brothers shotguns? There's a lot of discussion about this one.

[Murray Smith]

Parker Brothers made shotguns in a variety of models. Parker Brothers is a manufacturer. It's not a specific kind of shotgun. If a Parker shotgun were prohibited by the action of the proposed schedule or by the existing regulations, it would be because it had a bore diameter that exceeded 20 millimetres.

The Parker shotgun is a relatively old design of shotgun and dates back certainly 100 years or longer. There were gauges of shotgun ammunition used, such as eight gauge, which were larger than 20 millimetres. If such a shotgun were present today in Canada, it would be prohibited because the calibre exceeds 20 millimetres.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you.

[Murray Smith]

I have one last point: Again, it only applies to the Parker shotguns that are actually chambered for a large-bore calibre that exceeds 20 millimetres.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Okay.

Where would Parker Brothers shotguns sit in the universe of all the shotguns?

[Murray Smith]

Large gauges for shotguns are relatively uncommon.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

So, this would not affect most people.

[Murray Smith]

That's a subjective question, so I'm not sure I can answer that directly.

What I can say is that there would be a relatively small population—although we can't put a number to it—of shotguns that have a bore diameter bigger than 10 gauge and, therefore, would interact with the 20 millimetre criterion.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Now I'd like to turn to the Benelli M3, which has been the subject of a lot of discussion. I mentioned it in our last meeting, or a couple of meetings ago, as one that one of my Conservative colleagues mentioned as being an example of a firearm that sees the government overreaching into hunting rifles.

I think it would be important for us to just get clarity on this. When was the Benelli M3 tactical shotgun prohibited in Canada?

[Murray Smith]

It was prohibited in the original series of OICs, in the existing format, in 1992.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

So, it has not been available in Canada since 1992.

Was it ever available in Canada? I suppose that is the better question.

[Murray Smith]

Well, the Benelli series of shotguns dates back to the 1980s. It's possible that some shotguns came to Canada. However, the Benelli M1 and M3 prohibition, now seen in clause 7 in proposed schedule 1, took effect in 1992.