Public Safety Committee on Dec. 8th, 2022

[Murray Smith]

That's partly correct.

Since 1993, there is a five-shot maximum for an individually possessed magazine that applies to semi-automatic, centrefire calibre rifles and shotguns. However, for firearms with other actions, there is no limit on the magazine capacity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Ruff.

Go ahead.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you.

Just going back to the piece you were talking about, Ms. Damoff and I had the benefit of going to visit the Vancouver Police Department. They showed us how easy it was to modify some of these cartridges, or magazines really, to hold more.

What level of concern should we have in respect of being able to modify some of these things at home to hold more rounds?

[Murray Smith]

The level of concern is a question of public policy, which, again, is in your domain.

However, I was involved at the time in the creation of the magazine regulations. The government policy of the day, as explained to me, was that the concern was to provide a quick and easy way for owners to come into compliance with the magazine regulations at the time the law changed. As a result, the conversion methodology of magazines was not all that strict.

A magazine can be modified from a prohibited capacity to a non-prohibited capacity through the use of a pin or similar device, which does in fact block the magazine, but it's not incredibly secure.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Let's go back to cartridges used by hunters.

How many cartridges would you say are needed for your average hunter for, let's say, moose or duck hunting?

[Murray Smith]

It depends how good a shot the individual is, I suppose.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Mr. Motz is one shot, apparently.

[Murray Smith]

The goal of a hunter—I have hunted in the past, and I'm generally familiar with the culture—is a one-shot kill. That is what they strive to do. They are not interested in peppering the game animal with lots of holes. In the case of your moose or your deer, the ideal would be one shot.

Now, that doesn't always occur. A hunter may be shooting at a running animal and require follow-up shots. There may be something that happens at the time when the hunter is shooting and the bullet does not strike the animal in the desired location, and a follow-up shot is required. It's not infeasible to suggest that one or maybe two follow-up shots would be appropriate for big game hunting. I would say that most hunters would probably agree that emptying a mag of 20 shots, if it were available to hunters, is probably not what they want to do.

In the case of hunting birds, the regulations are very clear that, for hunting ducks and geese, which is regulated by the federal Migratory Birds Convention Act, hunters are permitted three cartridges. That's it. When a flock flies over, the hunter has three attempts to bring down three ducks or three geese or as many as they can with the allotted three shots. Then they must stop and reload.

For other game animals where a shotgun cartridge is used, the maximum number of cartridges will depend on the provincial hunting regulations. Typically that's somewhere around five, but that may vary from one province to the next.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I believe the member asked an important question, and it received an important response, but Mr. Smith did not outline predatory animals who may charge hunters. I think that's an important part of a hunting rifle that you left out, sir.

If you're going to be clear, it's important to mention predatory animals like grizzlies, wild boars and polar bears. You didn't mention the utility of a firearm and how many bullets may be needed should you be charged by one of those, which hunters, unfortunately, do encounter. I believe you would agree with me.

I think you were making a very good point, but you left out a critical purpose of having a firearm with multiple cartridges.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Dancho.

Mr. Smith, you may certainly respond, if you wish, and then we'll go back to Mr. Noormohamed.

[Murray Smith]

Certainly, if a hunter is engaged in hunting in an area where large predatory animals are a danger, the typical practice—and I have hunted bear myself—is to have more than one person present with a firearm. You would not hunt alone under those circumstances.

In general, the five shots that are permitted for a typical hunting rifle would ordinarily be sufficient under those circumstances.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you for that clarification.

I think Ms. Dancho makes a good point. In that scenario, you're saying that the five would be sufficient. Is that correct?

[Murray Smith]

In general hunting practice, yes. Again, the choice of rifle, the choice of the cartridge and the choice of the magazine size are all subject to provincial and federal regulation and to preferences on the part of the hunter.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

This might be a bit cheeky, but let's say you were to send me and Mr. Shipley out hunting, and we needed more....

Let's say we got our licence and the two of us decided we were going to go out hunting, and we were not able to take that—

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Let's say by some miracle this happened, and the two of us were to go out, and we were to need more than five cartridges to take that animal. What would that say about our hunting skill? Let's assume the animal was not running.

[Murray Smith]

I don't think that's a situation that really arises.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Come on. I'm not that bad a guy.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

That's the next political blind date show.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

I'm sorry, but it has been a long couple of hours.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

If you don't want to comment on our hunting skill, that's fine. I understand. I get it.

[Murray Smith]

In my experience, it is something that just doesn't occur.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

What laws are in place today to make sure that individuals cannot legally exceed the maximum cartridge capacity?