Public Safety Committee on Dec. 8th, 2022

[Murray Smith]

The cartridge magazine regulations are regulations made under the Criminal Code, and if an individual fails to heed those regulations, they are subject to criminal prosecution.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I have a point of clarification on that, Mr. Chair, if I may.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Once again, if it's okay with Mr. Noormohamed, go ahead.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I won't be going hunting with Taleeb any time soon.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Why not?

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Mr. Smith, just for clarification, what you're really trying to say in a political way is that anything greater than a five-round mag is prohibited already in law. Is that correct...on the application that you were just asked a question?

[Murray Smith]

It's prohibited for certain kinds of firearms.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Right. That's what Mr. Noormohamed is trying to refer to. Those firearms that are prohibited from having greater than five-round mags are already prohibited in this country. Is that correct?

[Murray Smith]

Yes. If the firearm is a semi-automatic centrefire calibre rifle, for example, then the capacity for the magazines has been limited to five shots since 1993. However, common hunting firearms use many other action types, like lever actions, bolt actions and so on, and the magazine size for those firearms is not limited at present.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

What I was getting at was that the question that Mr. Noormohamed asked was specific to the firearms that fit the definitions here, and for the guns now that have a five-round maximum magazine capacity, that magazine, if you have more than five rounds for that firearm, is already prohibited in this country.

[Murray Smith]

Again, I'm still not sure exactly what kinds of firearms you're referring to. Are you referring to the firearms in the schedules?

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Yes, the ones that are already prohibited under law.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I think we're getting into debate here. I'll let Mr. Noormohamed clarify, if he wishes.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I'm talking about more than five rounds. Ms Damoff and I went to the Vancouver Police Department. They showed us clips that held 30 or 40 rounds, but that had actually been modified to only allow you to shoot five at a time. How easy is it to modify those to go back to being able to fire 30 shots?

[Murray Smith]

It depends on how the magazine was modified, but the most common way of modifying magazines is to install a pin. I'm using the word “pin” very large. It could be a pop rivet. It could be an actual pin, or it could be a screw that's welded in. There are a variety of ways of putting in what would amount to a pin.

They are relatively easy to remove. They can be simply drilled out, and the magazine in most cases will function normally at that point. The hole on the side of the magazine does not impair its operation.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Why is that problematic?

[Murray Smith]

The law is intended to limit magazine capacity to five cartridges, so if a magazine is modified to hold only five cartridges to be compliant with the law and is easily reversed back to its original state, then it would be relatively easy for someone to defeat the intent of that particular regulation.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Which would mean it's prohibited....

[Murray Smith]

I apologize, sir, but when my microphone is on, I can't hear a thing you're saying.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

That's okay. Mr. Noormohamed will clarify if he needs to.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I'm running out of time, and I have quite a few more things I'd like to ask you. I'm hoping this won't bleed into the next meeting as well.

I'd like to talk a little bit about hunting licences and what it takes to become a hunter in this country. We've talked about a PAL, but there's a lot of misinformation. I think there's confusion about what sorts of licences a Canadian hunter would need to be out in the woods, like when Mr. Shipley and I decided we're going to go hunting.

Take us through the process you'd need to go through to legally hunt.

[Murray Smith]

I can only speak to that very broadly, because that's really out of my lane. Broadly speaking, hunters are required to take a course and to pass a test in order to get a hunting licence.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Okay.

I received a couple of pieces of correspondence about black powder firearms. Can you describe to us what black powder firearms are?

[Murray Smith]

Black powder is a generic term these days, and it refers to propellants that were used in historical firearms, so those before the existence of cartridges. These are the muzzle-loading firearms, where the hunter, or the shooter in general, had to manually load the powder, which was a separate element of the loading process. Ordinarily it would be a small container commonly called a powder horn, where a measured amount of the propellant powder would be poured into the bore of the firearm and then the bullet would be manually seated. The ignition system would be primed and then the firearm could be fired.

Black powder is a very generic term referring in one sense to the original kind of propellant that was black in colour, which was a chemical combination of saltpetre, sulphur and charcoal. We're talking about a “days of the pirates” type of propellant powder. However, that term being generic now also refers to more modern formulations that don't involve the same chemical substances but which perform in a similar way. They're used almost exclusively in muzzle-loading firearms.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

How would black powder firearms be affected by Bill C-21?