Public Safety Committee on Dec. 8th, 2022

[Murray Smith]

Again, as far as individuals are concerned, a prohibited firearm is a firearm they cannot possess, that they're forbidden to possess. There are some exceptions. There were firearms prohibited in the 1990s that were grandfathered to the owners even though they're prohibited firearms, but only those owners can continue to possess them.

For the average Canadian today, a prohibited firearm is inaccessible. They're not allowed to have it for any reason.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Talk a little bit about the grandfathering. What does that actually mean for someone who has one?

[Murray Smith]

Grandfathering was a process that was last used in the 1990s. It is a process whereby an individual who is in lawful possession of a firearm prior to its becoming prohibited—and presuming the individual meets all of the terms and conditions—is granted a licence to allow that individual to continue to possess one or more of those firearms.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

What determines how each of these weapons falls into each of these categories?

[Murray Smith]

That's a choice by either Parliament or the Governor in Council. They are the decision-makers in those cases.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

From those that are commonly available, what types of firearms can be used for hunting? It's a vague question, but for the purpose of hunting, what would you, as an expert in this field, say? Which type would be commonly used within the classifications here?

[Murray Smith]

In Canada, nearly all hunting is carried out with rifles and shotguns. The kind of firearm that can be used for hunting is regulated by provincial hunting regulations for the most part. There is a federal component to the regulation as well, for the federal migratory game birds act, which covers ducks and geese and certain other migratory game.

For the most part, the kinds of firearms that a hunter is allowed to use are determined by the provincial hunting regulations in concert with the provisions of the Firearms Act, which limits hunting to the use of non-restricted firearms.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

For clarity's sake, then, the vast majority of rifles and shotguns that are used for hunting would fall into the non-restricted category. Is that correct?

[Murray Smith]

Based on the laws that are enforced in Canada now at both the federal and the provincial level, my understanding is that those laws would preclude the use of any firearm other than a non-restricted firearm for hunting.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

It's a philosophical question. I'm not going to ask it of you, but it seems to me as you're saying that, when we're talking about rifles and shotguns, people who are using rifles and shotguns that are non-restricted don't have much to worry about.

[Murray Smith]

What I can say, and try to avoid philosophical questions, is that the firearms that are affected by the proposal before the committee would become prohibited. By law, those firearms would be inaccessible for hunting. As for whether that's a good idea or bad idea, that falls to you and your colleagues.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Right.

Let's now talk about Bill C-21 and this amendment and classifications. How would these classifications change on the basis of Bill C-21 or the proposed amendment?

[Murray Smith]

The provisions that affect firearms classification fall into two broad categories. The schedules are being proposed that would continue the existing prohibitions from the 1990s and 2020, as well as add new ones. Those are the ones at the end of schedule 2, from clause 97 onwards. There would be more firearms prohibited by the action of the schedules, if those were adopted.

The second broad manner that would change classifications is the so-called evergreening definition, which would automatically put firearms into the prohibited category if they met the criteria that were specified in that particular proposed amendment.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Going back to this question of classifications and the conversation that we had had earlier, you talked about firearms that are used for hunting, and then you mentioned others that were available for tactical purposes.

What is the difference between a rifle or shotgun that is designed for a tactical purpose versus for common use in hunting, in terms of the classification?

[Murray Smith]

There's no generally accepted definition that holistically defines a hunting rifle, but logically a hunting rifle is one that is designed for the purposes of hunting. The design features can vary significantly depending on the kind of game the hunting firearm is designed for use with. Twenty-twos and similar firearms would be suitable for very small game, and then a centre-fire cartridge for hunting big game, for example, in a rifle that supports that. Shotguns are generally used for hunting birds, although they can be used for big game hunting as well.

Tactical firearms, on the other hand, are firearms that are again, broadly speaking—there's no accurate, holistic definition of what is a tactical firearm—associated with military and police.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

What would they be used for, then? Let's be very clear. We've said that hunting rifles were used for hunting game. What are tactical rifles or shotguns used for?

[Murray Smith]

They'd be used by police to assist with their obligations to enforce the laws. It could be used against people or animals as the circumstances would dictate in a police or military operation.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

When manufacturers are developing or marketing firearms for our market here in Canada, do they take these classifications into account?

[Murray Smith]

A manufacturer in general will design a firearm for sale to a particular segment of the market that they think would be interested in their firearm. Depending on what group of potential purchasers they're aiming for, they would design the firearm accordingly. That's extremely varied. The market is very much fragmented in that respect. There are all kinds of uses for firearms that fall into general use categories or specialty categories that a firearm manufacturer may be aiming for in the design of their firearm. There's no general answer to that question.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I want to go back to what you were talking about in terms of use in a military operation. Then we talked about tactical a little bit. What is the difference between military and tactical, in your expertise? These are terms that get thrown around a lot. I want to make sure we are all on the same page.

[Murray Smith]

Yes, there's not a hard black line you can draw between military and tactical. Military firearms, broadly speaking, are those that are designed for military use. They would include large-calibre armaments—grenade launchers, rocket launchers, etc.—the types of firearms that are mentioned in clause 95, I believe. The military firearms would also include fully automatic firearms. Military use would also include what I would loosely call tactical firearms. These would be firearms that are not fully automatic, but which fulfill a tactical role on the battlefield, such as sniping and other specialty purposes.

The term “tactical” is often associated with police and security agencies that are not permitted to use fully automatic firearms, but use firearms that are similar in nature, except for the automatic fire.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Previously you said there wasn't a clear definition of “tactical weapon”. Is that correct?

[Murray Smith]

No. The definition will be mushy. There won't be hard borders to it, because firearm manufacturing represents a continuum. It's impossible to draw a line that cuts the continuum at an exact point and differentiates between two classes of firearms.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

You can appreciate that, for many people, a mushy definition is unsatisfactory. I know that my friends across have been asking for some time, as have we, for some clarity around some of these things. If I understand correctly, do Bill C-21 amendments not actually start to give us something that looks like a definition?

[Murray Smith]

The use of words like “tactical” and “military” appear in the RIAS for the regulations of May 2020, but those words do not appear in any definition. I would suggest they are more in the category of criteria that the Governor in Council used to select firearms that were put on the list.