Public Safety Committee on Dec. 8th, 2022

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Why is it hard for us to get—and I'm going to use your term, because I quite like it—anything beyond a mushy definition? What causes that to be the case? This is a sincere question, because I think for all of us here, we certainly do not have the depth of knowledge, combined, that all of you have. Why is it hard to define these things?

[Murray Smith]

There are two reasons, primarily. One is what I mentioned before, in that the firearms manufacturing design choices represent a continuum. The firearms will have features that range from hunting to tactical. You can add and subtract individual features on a firearm, and there's no clearly defined point at which the addition of operating characteristics changes the firearm from a tactical firearm to a non-tactical firearm.

The second reason is that the firearms themselves can often be modified to switch from one category to another. They can be equipped with features that are suitable for hunting, and then those features can be added and subtracted in order to produce a tactical firearm. That's the trend today in manufacturing, towards the use of modular firearms that can be transformed from one purpose to another simply by adding or subtracting components.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

To clarify, by whom are they transformed? Are they transformed by the manufacturer or by anyone who chooses to buy those parts?

[Murray Smith]

Historically, it was the choice of the manufacturer, or it required the services of a gunsmith to change the firearm, typically. However, the trend for the past couple of decades, at least, has been for manufacturers to build firearms that are modular in nature, and that are designed for the end-user to change the features to transform the firearm from one purpose to another.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I could get my gun licence, my PAL or my RPAL. I could then buy a weapon that is not used for tactical purposes. Then I could buy the components and, in the privacy of my own home, turn that into a tactical weapon, if I so choose.

[Murray Smith]

In some cases, yes.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Why is that problematic for law enforcement?

[Murray Smith]

You would have to consult someone from law enforcement on why they don't like that.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I'm sure some of my colleagues in law enforcement might want to jump in on that, but that's perhaps for a later conversation. As I look at it, I can understand why that might be highly problematic, and I do think that this is part of why we are here having this conversation today.

Mr. Smith, I'm going to give you a bit of a break, and I'm going to switch it back to Ms. Glushek and Ms. Clarke.

When you provide us this list, is it going to be organized in a way so that a reader...? I know this wasn't what I asked before, but given the work you've been doing, maybe you've already thought about this. Will people understand why each of these firearms is being banned? Will there be an explanation?

[Phaedra Glushek]

In the actual statute—because this will be codified in the Criminal Code—we don't normally, with criminal amendments, add a rationale into the code. However, there will be the availability of Hansard, the debates of this parliamentary committee and any background information by the department. There would be a bit of an explanation in terms of how it's meant to enhance public safety, etc., and our key messages through communication.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I guess what I'm trying to get at is this. Will there be a way for folks to understand if something is specifically listed and which criteria it meets, or is that going to be difficult for folks to get an answer to?

[Phaedra Glushek]

In terms of posting, it's like any other criminal definition or part of the Criminal Code in terms of offences. No, there's no explanation in the code. It's a matter of reading the definition and being able to apply it to a specific fact situation, but my colleague might want to jump in on that.

[Paula Clarke]

I would just remind the committee that the evergreen definition and schedule 2 would come into force by an order in council and, during that time, the Canadian firearms program would have an opportunity to review the firearms reference table to identify which firearms may be captured by the evergreen definition, and then that information could be communicated prior to the coming into force of these provisions that would prohibit the firearms.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you.

All right, Mr. Smith, your break is over.

Let's go back to the PAL and the RPAL. There's been a lot of discussion about this. I know that there are many of us who want to know and want to understand what goes into that process. What standards have to be met in order for someone to get a PAL or an RPAL?

[Murray Smith]

I don't have the details in front of me to go through it atom by atom, but, broadly speaking, an individual who wishes to get a firearms licence today would be required to take a firearms safety training course and pass it successfully. That safety training course involves both a written examination and a practical examination handling firearms.

They would also be subject to a review by a chief firearms officer who would vet their suitability for owning firearms, and the chief firearms officers would have access to various databases for that purpose. They're also free to contact the references that the firearms applicant has nominated to get a sense of the background or the history of the individual.

At that point, the chief firearms officer or the agent working for the chief firearms officer would then make an assessment as to whether the review has been thorough enough, and a licence could either be issued or rejected based on what they know at that point, or further investigation could be required and a CFO is entitled to proceed with additional investigations if necessary.

At the end of the day, the chief firearms officer, or CFO, will make a decision on whether the individual can be granted a licence or not. That decision is appealable to the courts, and the court has the final say on whether the individual can get a licence or not.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Once they have that licence, how often is it reviewed and renewed?

[Murray Smith]

A licence is good for five years. There is a renewal process that takes place. The CFO then typically looks at the intervening five years between licensing, but is presently entitled to go right back to day one if they so choose. The ability of the CFO to go back in history to vet a potential firearms licence renewal is not limited.

Again, the CFO would go through a similar process of collecting information on the individual and making decisions at various stages as to whether they plan to accept, reject or investigate further.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you.

If I could, I would like to just turn back to many of those Canadians who have heard a lot of discussion about how hunters could be impacted or are being convinced that they might be impacted by what is or is not in this legislation.

Let's talk about firearm action for a moment. When we're talking about firearm action, what do we actually mean?

[Murray Smith]

The action of a firearm is a descriptive term for the kind of mechanism it has.

Bolt action, for example, refers to an action that operates like an ordinary door bolt, where a handle is moved to unlock the mechanism and then the bolt is slid backwards and forwards to unload and reload the firearm.

There are lever-action firearms, where a lever, typically at the bottom of firearm, is pushed down to open the mechanism and then raised to close it again.

The semi-automatic action is one where much of the loading action is done automatically by the firearm. It's kind of like having an automatic transmission on a car versus a standard. The same operations occur, but the firearm does it automatically for the user.

There are many types of actions. Those are some common ones.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

We've heard a lot about pump action. What about pump action?

[Murray Smith]

Pump action is a mechanism where the fore-end of the rifle or the shotgun, which is the handle of the firearm that is typically below the barrel at the front of the firearm, is moved backward and forward by the operator of the rifle or shotgun. Typically the backward stroke is used to unload the firearm or eject a fired cartridge and the forward stroke is used to load a fresh cartridge to fire again. It also falls into the category of a manually operated mechanism.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

What about hinge action?

[Murray Smith]

Break open or hinge action can be found on rifles or shotguns and some handguns. Typically the firearm will have a pin and a hinge midway down the firearm that allows the firearm to be opened like a clam, so to speak, for access to either unload or load the firearm.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Which firearm actions are legal for use in Canada and which are illegal?

[Murray Smith]

Broadly speaking, the classification of a firearm does not depend on its action. The exception there is the fully automatic action. Any firearm with a fully automatic action is prohibited. Other than that category, the action really doesn't influence the classification—not directly anyway. It can indirectly but not directly.