Public Safety Committee on Feb. 10th, 2023

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Okay.

How do we disrupt organized crime in our prisons?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

It's a real issue. Gangs and organized crime are real concerns. I would like to lead and talk, perhaps, about one of the systemic investigations we did, this past year, on Black prisoners who are overly identified as gang members, with a great deal of detrimental impact on them. Sometimes, it's unclear how they were provided that label, because the label carries very heavy consequences.

What we've also noticed is a “gang lens” on Black prisoners. Even those not affiliated with gangs or officially labelled in Correctional Service Canada's assessment as gang members or significant threats are treated the same way. That's a real problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Zinger.

Thank you, Mr. Lloyd.

We're now going to Mr. Chiang.

Mr. Chiang, please go ahead for five minutes.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good morning.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being with us here today, and for imparting their knowledge.

In regard to discrimination, I was glad to hear that your office was encouraged by the Prime Minister's mandate letter to the Minister of Public Safety, which calls on him to address systemic racism in the criminal justice system, including federal corrections.

How can the Government of Canada ensure we get this right, moving forward, in terms of addressing systemic human rights concerns in federal corrections?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

Yes, there is a.... I'm not completely jaded all the way through to the core. I do have hope. I am hopeful; there are two particular initiatives led by the Department of Justice and the Minister of Justice that I think offer some hope—if rolled out appropriately, of course. One is the strategy on indigenous criminal justice. Another strategy involves Canadians of African descent and the justice system. Both those initiatives are led by the Department of Justice, but it's clear that the Minister of Public Safety has a role to play in them as well.

My fear is always that when something is led by the Department of Justice, it will focus only on what it knows, which is the courts, sentencing, and these kinds of issues, so this year I've recommended in my annual report that corrections becomes a significant part of that overall strategy: Don't forget corrections. It certainly has enough money. There's a lot of stuff you could do to address some of those issues, dealing specifically with, if I had four groups or segments that I think need reforms, indigenous corrections; those who are significantly mentally ill or suicidal, or who chronically self-harm; women; and the aging population, because, in my view, for many of them, there is no reason to keep them in penitentiaries. They are not a threat to society.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Dr. Zinger.

In regard to those recommendations, has there been any progress in addressing the discrimination in our correctional system?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

I can tell you that I am very disappointed with the response of the Correctional Service of Canada with respect to the recommendations I have made for over a decade when it comes to indigenous people. In our report, “Spirit Matters”, as well as the report we did on the experiences of Black individuals incarcerated in federal corrections, which also dates back to 2013, I'm appalled that....

It's not just I who have made recommendations. My recommendations have been rolled into the work of the UN working group of experts on people of African descent, who cut and paste some of the same kinds of recommendations that I've made before. That was in 2016, yet very little has been done.

I notice that the trap with the Correctional Service of Canada is that they seem to be very good at producing a lot of corporate documents, but it doesn't filter down to the penitentiary floor, if you will, and effect change. The latest flurry of activity wasn't in response to my recommendations but to the Prime Minister's direction that every single government department should have an anti-racism strategy. There was a flurry of activity, but it still doesn't seem to have had any impact on how people are treated in our penitentiaries. They are still subject to pervasive discrimination, biases and racism. That's very unfortunate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Chiang.

That ends our second round. We'll start our third round with Mr. Motz.

Mr. Motz, please go ahead for five minutes.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Dr. Zinger, in our last iteration on public safety, we had conversations about Correctional Service Canada as well. I notice that in your summary you have some new issues that you're facing, one of them being MAID, medical assistance in dying. That's one of the new challenges facing corrections. The rest of your report, however, doesn't make much mention of that practice.

An access to information and privacy request revealed that as of August 2020, a total of 11 individuals in the custody of the Correctional Service of Canada had made requests for medical assistance in dying. Three of them were granted.

This fiscal year, how many incarcerated people sought medical assistance in dying? How many incarcerated people received medical assistance in dying? Can you tell us those numbers, sir?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

The answer is no. I will tell you that I'm quite upset about it. When new legislation was being proposed, I was asked to testify. I provided some, I thought, very thoughtful and important changes that needed to be done. One of them is that the Correctional Service of Canada has no statutory obligation to inform my office of somebody either requesting or having the procedure of MAID done. I think that is inappropriate. That's one thing I'm a little upset about.

The second one is the most obvious one, which is that some of the procedures have been conducted inside penitentiaries, and I think that is ethically wrong. Canada is becoming the only country in the world that sanctions MAID in a correctional facility. I think it's extraordinary. Corrections should not be in the business of shortening the lives of individuals under their roof. It should be done in an outside hospital. Therefore, I've mentioned that as well.

Those are small changes that I think would be important.

The third one is that corrections does not do any mortality review when it comes to MAID. For me, it should. Why? It is because there are questions that are important, not just in terms of ensuring that a MAID procedure was appropriate, but questions about whether the health care that was provided to that person was up to snuff and did not accelerate the request for MAID, for example. Was everything done to try to transfer the person outside the penitentiary so that they could make a decision that was much more informed and free of constraint in the community before requesting MAID? This should be subject to investigations.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Dr. Zinger, I certainly understand the frustration you have with that. Beyond what you have indicated, I'm wondering about this. I know you don't know the answer to this, and this is more of a statement, but I'm wondering about the concern over the slippery slope that MAID has become. We know, across this country leading up to the review last fall, that there are those who seek MAID and have received medical assistance in dying for mental health challenges and not for imminent death for which there is no cure. I suspect in our Correctional Service that would even be more of a challenge. Unfortunately, with some extension of this and a year-long extension to even start considering MAID for those who are experiencing mental health challenges, we are the only country in the world that would even consider such a move. It's troubling. I think it's going to be troubling for you and for the Correctional Service moving forward.

Just changing gears a bit, sir, the last time you were here we talked about this. I think Ms. Damoff remembers these conversations we had. You have stated in your summary that you've provided us, supported by the numbers, that Black and indigenous individuals are overrepresented in Canada's correctional system. Given your current role and the experience you have on this matter, why is that occurring? Can you explain this overrepresentation of these groups in corrections?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

I'm going to turn to Hazel to give you a better answer than mine. My answer will be more as a human rights lawyer.

What I can tell you is that in Canadian society, indigenous people and Canadians of African descent do not benefit from the same socio-economic, cultural and political rights as other Canadians. There are a slew of reasons for that being the case.

I will turn to Hazel to provide you with a better answer in terms of the deep-rooted issues where history has resulted in a situation whereby they're not benefiting from the rights that you and I, as aging white men, certainly benefit from.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Madam Miron, please make it a quick answer, as Mr. Motz's time went over.

[Hazel Miron]

The overrepresentation in the institutions right now is due to the lack of willingness or desire to have the indigenous or Black populations moved into medium and minimum security.

Most of our healing lodges are sitting empty as well, because there is that control factor that CSC seems to have for these people. They don't want to cascade them down to a proper security level.

We have a massive number of Black and indigenous fellows in medium facilities, mostly the less desirable institutions like Sas Pen or Stony Mountain. You'll find that the majority of the inmates there are indigenous. They're just being warehoused there because they are not being moved to a medium facility.

Of course—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you. I am going to have to cut you off there. The time is up.

We go now to Madam Damoff, please.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

There is so little time here. I want to talk about gangs and I want to talk about geriatric inmates.

Really quickly on this one, does CSC have a national gangs strategy? Should it? I know that the framework to reduce recidivism mentioned gangs. Given the prevalence of gangs in the institutions, I wondered if you could really quickly comment on that.

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

We've been calling for the service to have a national gangs strategy and also a specific initiative for the de-affiliation of gangs. So far, we haven't been able to convince the service of the benefit of having such an overall strategy and initiative.

We've documented some of the concerns we have with respect to younger prisoners. We did a systemic investigation on those aged 18 to 21. It was clear that they are subject.... They are fearful for their lives. When coming into the penitentiaries, they are proactively seeking gang membership for protection. The costs associated with that are tremendous for those individuals. It perpetuates a problem.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Dr. Zinger.

Just before I go on to geriatric inmates, when I was at Grand Valley I saw the prison needle exchange program and I spoke to the nurse there. It's been extremely successful. My understanding is that there have been no incidents.

I acknowledge the fear that exists in the institutions that don't have it. Certainly at that institution there were stickers all over, opposing it, but when I spoke to the nurse and the people actually administering it, there had not been any issues in the institutions.

Your report talks about the average age being 45 to 50. All of us sitting in this room think to ourselves that this is not very old.

The fact is, I had an awakening when I went to Millhaven, Dr. Zinger. I saw an inmate and a group of inmates who I thought were in their 80s. They could have been at a table in a long-term care home. I found out that they were younger than I am.

The horrible food—it's difficult for Canadians to understand just how bad the food is—the conditions, the confinement and the lack of physical activities mean that these inmates are aging much faster than the general population.

Do you think there would be a benefit of a continuum of care by developing partnerships in the community to enable these inmates who are not posing a risk to society to be in long-term care homes or some kind of long-term care facility?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

Yes, the age we use is 50. That's to recognize people who are incarcerated, because the long history of mental illness, addiction issues and the life of crime prematurely age the body. You can add a chronological factor of 10 years to their age in terms of their health.

I don't know what to tell you. It's a growing number. It's clear to me that other jurisdictions have been able to release those individuals into the community safely and at a much lower cost. Keeping a person aging and dying in prison costs Canadians two to four times the average cost of incarceration, which is $225,000, as I mentioned at the beginning. It's outrageously expensive.

If it could be done by not competing with the.... That's the key. Not competing is what the service tells me. If we're trying to transfer that person out, there's no bed space. There's no long-term care facility bed space. There's no retirement home where we can send them. If the service, given the level of resource, could create bed space.... For example, the State of Connecticut went to the private sector and asked it to build some long-term care facilities. The cost is way cheaper. It doesn't cost $225,000 or two to four times that to keep an aging parent in a retirement home or a long-term care facility. There are huge savings to be made. It is more humane and more dignified. It makes no sense.

There are about 50 to 60 people who die in penitentiary every year, the average age being 62. It's crazy. Two-thirds of these individuals die of natural causes. The vast majority are predictable deaths. People get chronic diseases, become terminally ill and palliative, and die in prison. There's absolutely no reason these individuals should be managing the last few months or year of their lives in a penitentiary.

When we did our systemic investigation on aging, we asked prisoners—we interviewed a lot of them, over 200—and they all told us that their biggest fear was of dying in prison. The service, even with MAID, tells us, “Oh no, we're doing it in prison because it's what they want.” They don't want this. It's inappropriate; it's expensive, and I think we could do better. Given that it's a slowly growing proportion of our penitentiary population, we should be much more proactive. If legislation could help, for example, in terms of medical releases or geriatric releases to force the service to do the right thing, then please do it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses again. Their comments are very interesting. I also want to thank my colleagues, who are asking questions on just about every subject. We're learning a lot from them.

I'd like to hear more about the experiences of Black individuals in penitentiaries. You made some recommendations in your report. You talk about racial bias, which is obviously very much present. You also talk about the availability of personal care products and do-rags, an accessory that some people use to cover their hair. The report also includes testimonials from people saying they got better service or felt more confident when they were served by someone from their community, or a Black person.

Can you talk more about your recommendations for those areas in particular?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

We made several recommendations in that section of our annual report, which was well received. In fact, I was very encouraged to see that our last report was cited in a Supreme Court decision. That decision held that a young Black individual should not have been handed the minimum sentence, given what was happening in correctional facilities and the discrimination that he might face, because it made his sentence disproportionate.

It was clearly acknowledged that Correctional Service Canada did not consider providing skin care products for Black individuals, who have different challenges than Caucasians, and that it considered do-rags to be gang-related. I have to say that Correctional Service Canada responded positively on both of those things, and we were pleased with that.

The most important recommendation we made was to develop a highly detailed national strategy that would really change the game in terms of how Black individuals are treated in the federal correctional system. I admit that I don't like this very much, because I often criticize this kind of organizational document, but it's important to my office, whose role is to ensure compliance with the law and policy. In the absence of policies, it's very hard for me to hold Correctional Service Canada accountable. That's why I made that recommendation. It touches on all sorts of areas where Correctional Service Canada could really make a difference for Black individuals incarcerated in our penitentiaries.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. MacGregor, please, for two and a half minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Dr. Zinger, one of my other committees is the Special Joint Committee on Medical Assistance in Dying. We are going to be releasing our final report next week. We had a witness, Dr. Jessica Shaw, who appeared before our committee to talk about MAID in prisons. I want to quote from her testimony. She said:

Well, what we informally call compassionate release is actually called parole by exception, and being granted parole by exception in Canada is exceedingly rare. In two of the three known MAID cases for patients in CSC custody, the prisoners had applied for and been denied parole. The third prisoner didn't apply. Apparently he knew that his prospects for release were minimal, even considering his advanced stages of illness.

She went on to say:

Canada is the only jurisdiction in the world where assisted dying is legal who does have specific guidelines about how it ought to be implemented for prisoners.

I don't have a lot of time here. What would you like to see in those guidelines? I want you to expand a bit, because this is obviously a pressing issue.

Could you also maybe talk about track 2? That's for people who do not have a naturally foreseeable death but are suffering from a grievous and irremediable condition.

Do you know much about that population in Canada's federal institutions?

[Dr. Ivan Zinger]

I can concur with what Dr. Shaw mentioned, and I suspect that some of the stories come directly from what we were able to gather.

The problem, as I said, is threefold. There has to be a statutory obligation to refer the cases so that my office becomes aware; there needs to be oversight in this business. The second one is that the service must investigate like it does for every single death dealing with a person who is incarcerated. Then there should be a clear prohibition that the procedure should not happen in penitentiaries—period—no if and buts. It should not happen.

What I think is really important to stress in a prison situation is to try to be extremely proactive and get the people who are palliative, terminally ill, have chronic diseases, where death is just a question of time, outside the penitentiary so they can make the decision there without the fear of dying in prison, and the coercion that can be either perceived or real. I think that's my wish.

With respect to phase two, or the expansion of it, given the high prevalence of people with significant mental illness who live in conditions of confinement, especially some of the people who are severely mentally ill, it's to give them a way out of prison with death, because they're struggling with mental illness and are in such poor conditions of confinement.

I can tell you that people with mental illness in corrections tend to be housed in higher-security institutions, maximum security. They're overrepresented in those structured intervention units, which are the new regime in administrative segregation.

Absolutely, this should have added oversight and some rigour if you're going to expand it. It's not only that they're suffering and they want the suffering to end, possibly, but also because the added suffering because of the conditions of confinement may taint their...so absolutely this should be done very thoughtfully.