Public Safety Committee on Feb. 17th, 2023

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As the member for Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, I represent people in Montreal who are extremely worried, particularly about their children's safety. We have had tragedies in Montreal. Obviously, the Polytechnique and Dawson College come to mind, but also in Quebec City, where Alexandre Bissonnette obtained an AR‑15 and a revolver to kill people at the Quebec City mosque. He had been radicalized online by extremist, racist and Islamophobic groups.

Mr. Bourget, I don't want to talk about the definition of spokesperson, but your involvement in the National Firearms Association amounts to more than just being a parrot that repeats the lines taught to it.

Is it correct that you produce the French-language newsletter of the National Firearms Association on YouTube?

[Martin Bourget]

Yes, absolutely. My role is to provide a bridge between francophone users and the NFA.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

The positions taken by the National Firearms Association are quite extreme and libertarian. It actually would like there to be no rules: it wants to legalize all firearms and eliminate the prohibited weapons categories, possession licences, magazine size limits, and safe storage rules.

Do you support the Association's positions on these subjects?

[Martin Bourget]

To answer your question, I have to look at the context for each of those cases.

For safe storage, I definitely take the same position. We were talking just now about remote regions, among other things, where sometimes people have to defend themselves against dangerous animals. In fact, a woman and her child were killed in those circumstances a few years ago.

For restrictive measures, which involve just seizing firearms owned by an individual, and registries and various licences, I would say absolutely, yes.

If we contextualize what you are putting to me in its entirety, the way that the use of firearms is restricted and the fact that they are not recognized in the history of crime in Canada, on that part, I entirely agree. That does not mean that firearms regulation is not still necessary in order for the industry, the business, and the various activities associated with them to function properly.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

If I understand correctly, you do not agree with legalizing all firearms.

[Martin Bourget]

I don't have a list in hand of all firearms, but I believe that certain firearms should be reserved for military or industrial use, and not for use by citizens.

I think I would have to know the context in which the NFA made those statements.

I'll give you an example: a Flak gun, which generally has to be installed on the turret of a military vehicle. Obviously, common sense tells us that it isn't necessary to address that. Personally, I certainly would not consider legalizing the use of the Flak gun for hunting grouse.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

The example you are giving us is a bit much. It doesn't make a lot...

[Martin Bourget]

It answers the question, which is also quite a bit much.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

In the NDP, we agree that the rights and traditions of the First Nations and the rights of people who hunt for fun or food have to be respected.

In your opening statement, you talked about the mental health issues that this raises; we often hear people who defend the carrying of guns use the same argument.

[Martin Bourget]

Yes.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Is the effect of suspending or eliminating all firearm possession licences not going to be precisely to complicate the problems of people who have mental health problems, since everything would be permitted and there would be no rules?

[Martin Bourget]

That is a social problem.

Firearms are a great banner for talking about a problem by [technical difficulties] the events of the past. In...

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Bourget, firearms are more than a banner. People are being killed for real in the streets.

[Martin Bourget]

In recent weeks we have proved that vehicles and drowning also kill people. In fact, there was even a father who drowned his children.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

There are rules...

[Martin Bourget]

Those are cases for which laws have been made. The forensic pathologists have given a diagnosis. You and I are not certified professionals, but they are. The forensic pathologists and coroners have ruled that these people were in a state of psychological distress or intoxication, in a majority of cases.

That is why we strongly advocate for more to be heard about mental health problems and prevention, because this is not just about tragedies caused by firearms, it is about all tragedies. There is psychological distress in the streets. We believe this would really be a way to eradicate gun crime or any other form of crime.

We know how much is spent by committees like yours and the resources put in place for gun buybacks. Of course we would prefer that those investments be used for mental health prevention and to strengthen police forces instead.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Bourget, can you not admit that if a person who is in crisis, or a person with a mental health problem, is not required to have a licence to possess a firearm, that opens the door to the commission of other crimes?

[Martin Bourget]

Let's base what we say on the data.

After major tragedies, which are regularly brought up at this committee, the coroners have ruled that gun control or creating a registry, among other things, would not have changed anything about the situation.

I am basing what I say on data when I say that the money and energy invested are not going to the right place. If this is the value we put on the lives we say we want to protect, I see a problem when all of the resources are being tied to a piece of paper or that kind of method of control.

What we are not doing is dealing with a lot of people in crisis and thugs who are going to keep making blood run in the streets. In fact, that has been the case since this issue was first debated.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Bourget, the National Firearms Association and some of its representatives advocate civil disobedience, if military weapons or assault weapons, which are used only to kill other human beings, were to be banned. I'm not talking about hunting weapons here.

Do you, personally, agree with that position?

[Martin Bourget]

I in no way agree on any promotion of civil disobedience whatsoever. I would like to know the context that what you are telling me happens in, because I would have to report it to the people in the organization.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

This was a statement made by Charles Zach of the National Firearms Association, Mr. Bourget.

[Martin Bourget]

Very honestly, as a service to the community, we may give ourselves that kind of information when the mics are off. That is the kind of thing I would like to report. I am absolutely against any proposal for civil disobedience.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Boulerice and Mr. Bourget.

I think that wraps up our first round. We'll go to our second round.

We'll have to abbreviate this round also, as we did before. It's four minutes each for the Conservatives and the Liberals. It's two minutes for the NDP and the Bloc.

Thank you all.

Go ahead, Ms. Dancho, for four minutes, please.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a few questions for Mr. Hipwell concerning the AR-10s. Can you explain briefly the relation between the AR-10s and the AR-15s? Is it a variant? Is it a bear calibre? Just be brief.

[Matthew Hipwell]

The simplest way to explain an AR-10 is that it's in a larger calibre—most commonly in a .308 calibre.